Rafael Palmeiro - questions for the old guys

[Moose Milligan]

21 minutes ago, baltfan said:

The original post asked for some perspective on what Palmeiro was like.  I said he was a really good player and thought of as such, but not thought of as a top 10 type player.  Someone challenged that.  I was just pointing out the accuracy of my statement.  I loved Palmeiro when he was here and still think he has the most effortless swing I have ever seen.  I wish we knew what his bat speed was because it always seemed very slow but he got amazing results. 

I don't know if he was a top 10 player or not...certain years I think you could make the case that he was.  You included Biggio in your list and while I really liked Biggio, I do believe Palmeiro was better...even despite the fact that Biggio played a more premium position.  Palmeiro has a higher career rWAR.  He's also higher than Larkin despite Larkin being a shortstop (he does have more plate appearances than Larkin, for sure).

I'll agree that he wasn't a flat out scary hitter the way Frank Thomas in his prime was but he's also like 2.0 WAR behind Thomas for his career.  It's closer than you think for some of the guys in your list.

Depending on the season, I think he could fit comfortably anywhere in the 8-13 range.  

Edited June 9 by Moose Milligan

[baltfan]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't know if he was a top 10 player or not...certain years I think you could make the case that he was.  You included Biggio in your list and while I really liked Biggio, I do believe Palmeiro was better...even despite the fact that Biggio played a more premium position.  Palmeiro has a higher career rWAR.  He's also higher than Larkin despite Larkin being a shortstop (he does have more plate appearances than Larkin, for sure).

I'll agree that he wasn't a flat out scary hitter the way Frank Thomas in his prime was but he's also like 2.0 WAR behind Thomas for his career.  It's closer than you think for some of the guys in your list.

Depending on the season, I think he could fit comfortably anywhere in the 8-13 range.  

Palmeiro benefits a lot from having a long career which allows for WAR to pile up.  In general, I think in the moment when Palmeiro was an Oriole, the players I listed were generally considered better but for sure it was closer for some of these players than others.  Palmeiro was only an All-Star 4 times in his entire career.  That tells you a bit about his place in MLB.

[Sports Guy]

4 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

He’s arguing that Palmeiro wasn’t a top player in his hay day.

Which would be a terrible argument.  I also disagree with some of the names on that list.

[SemperFi]

Palmiero was by all accounts quiet and a decent teammate but there were a number of things about him that pushed teammates, fans and sportwriters away.

-The whining about Will Clark-"Palmeiro was upset with the Rangers for the deal they struck with Clark, which was similar to the one he was seeking. He also lashed out at Clark in the press. In the Fort Worth-Star Telegram, Palmeiro lambasted Clark, believing he had undercut him, “That’s Will. That’s the way he is. He’s got no class. Friendship didn’t matter to him. He was looking out for himself. I don’t think much of Will. He’s a lowlife.”   This ran counter to everything the union fought for and many despised him for it.  He had the offer and didn't sign-don't blame Clark for taking it.

-The Sandberg affair-there are consequences for sleeping with a co-worker's wife especially a beloved star.  This is a line you simply don't cross.  

-Steroids-the point wasn't necessarily that he was using it was that he came up with a unbelievable story about his wife injecting him with b12 from Tejada, then blamed the incident in Congress on his attorney.  And then whining that he "can't make money" at age 40 as a result of the positive test.

-3000th hit and suspension- Shortly after Palmiero testified before Congress and wagged his finger denying use he was notified he was to be suspended for steroids and appealed allowing him to get 3000 hits-Bud Selig had taken out a full page ad in USA Today touting his achievement then he was the first player to be suspended for steroid use.  Think he pissed off a few people in the Comissioners office??  Major League Baseball’s lead counsel Francis Coonelly called Palmeiro “arrogant” and “desperate” and his denial “far-fetched.” 

He certainly wasn't a jerk like Bonds or Rose but he did many things throughout his career that irritated his peers and that was evident in voting for the HOF (he expected to get in 2nd year but never got more than 12.6 %).  Fast froward to today and Bonds and McGwire are both back in MLB but no one will touch Palmiero........

[baltfan]

52 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Which would be a terrible argument.  I also disagree with some of the names on that list.

Wasn’t arguing Palmeiro wasn’t a top player.  He was.  He is just more in the top 15 area vs top 10. The original poster asked for context.  I was giving to them. You can disagree with some of the players on the list, but I imagine you don’t look at any of them and say it’s ridiculous to claim.  And note this is just position players.  Palmeiro was a great player, but there were lots of them at the time. 

[Roll Tide]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't know if he was a top 10 player or not...certain years I think you could make the case that he was.  You included Biggio in your list and while I really liked Biggio, I do believe Palmeiro was better...even despite the fact that Biggio played a more premium position.  Palmeiro has a higher career rWAR.  He's also higher than Larkin despite Larkin being a shortstop (he does have more plate appearances than Larkin, for sure).

I'll agree that he wasn't a flat out scary hitter the way Frank Thomas in his prime was but he's also like 2.0 WAR behind Thomas for his career.  It's closer than you think for some of the guys in your list.

Depending on the season, I think he could fit comfortably anywhere in the 8-13 range.  

And I said he was in the top 10 for MVP in 93 (#8),96 (#6) & 99 (#5) Plus  in 98 and 99 he also won a GG and SS. 
 

He was a complete player where guys that he mentioned like Mo Vaughn and Thome really weren’t. 
 

He also mentioned…Alomar …but Palmeiro beat him in WAR 71.9 to 67. Thome was 73.1 and Mo Vaughn was only 27.1
 

Edited June 9 by Roll Tide

[baltfan]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

And I said he was in the top 10 for MVP in 93 (#8),96 (#6) & 99 (#5) Plus  in 98 and 99 he also won a GG and SS. 

That is MVP voting for the AL only.  If he was 5th in MVP voting one year, he probably was about the same if had been in the NL.  That would put him in the bottom of the top 10 his best year.  Again he was a great player but there were tons then.  I didn’t even list Vlad, Sosa, or Larry Walker.  They all had superior peaks. 

[Roll Tide]

2 minutes ago, baltfan said:

That is MVP voting for the AL only.  If he was 5th in MVP voting one year, he probably was about the same if had been in the NL.  That would put him in the bottom of the top 10 his best year.  Again he was a great player but there were tons then.  I didn’t even list Vlad, Sosa, or Larry Walker.  They all had superior peaks. 

The MVP voting isn’t the end all …. Neither is WAR ….but you lost credibility when you named Mo Vaughn better.

Edited June 9 by Roll Tide

[Roll Tide]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:20 AM, Flash- bd said:

No doubt, Vaughn and Thomas were beasts. I meant crazy in the sense that you could put up those kind of numbers back then and not be a clear all-star choice. Frank was indeed a special hitter. 

Palmeiro had 71.9 WAR ….. Vaughn 27….. Your other Beast was only 73.8 …so was only 2 WAR better over his career.

[baltfan]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

The MVP voting isn’t the end all …. Neither is WAR ….but you lost credibility when you named Mo Vaughn better.

Mo Vaughn had an excellent peak. There is a reason he got a bigger contract as a free agent than Raffy did.   They were both free agents in 1999. Mo got 6/80. Raffy got 5/50.  That’s not the end all be all and Mo was younger, but it does tell you how they were thought about.  Over the course of their career Palmeiro was clearly better. 
 

Also in the same time period Mo finished first, 4th, and 5th from 1995-98.  He basically was never the same after leaving Boston as a free agent.  But maybe if he had gotten some help from the juice that would have helped him.   

[baltfan]

6 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Palmeiro had 71.9 WAR ….. Vaughn 27….. Your other Beast was only 73.8 …so was only 2 WAR better over his career.

Palmeiro was great but there was almost no year that any GM in baseball would have taken him over Thomas.  

[Roll Tide]

ARod

Griffey

Piazza

Bonds

Chipper

Bagwell

@baltfan

 

these are the guys from your list that are clearly better using WAR….Many of the guys you mentioned never sniffed 70 WAR and a few were right around Palmeiro. Guys with a couple WAR (1-2) weren’t clearly better. Palmeiro probably is in the top ten 7-8 by WAR of the list you provided.

Edited June 9 by Roll Tide

[Roll Tide]

10 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Palmeiro was great but there was almost no year that any GM in baseball would have taken him over Thomas.  

You have zero proof of this and are just deflecting stats you can’t debate.

[Roll Tide]

15 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Mo Vaughn had an excellent peak. There is a reason he got a bigger contract as a free agent than Raffy did.   They were both free agents in 1999. Mo got 6/80. Raffy got 5/50.  That’s not the end all be all and Mo was younger, but it does tell you how they were thought about.  Over the course of their career Palmeiro was clearly better. 
 

Also in the same time period Mo finished first, 4th, and 5th from 1995-98.  He basically was never the same after leaving Boston as a free agent.  But maybe if he had gotten some help from the juice that would have helped him.   

You can’t argue contracts as to who was more valuable. There are too many other factors, Agent Vaughn (Moorad) vs Palmeiro (Bronner), Desperation of the team signing the player. Heck …you could then argue Chris Davis was better than Palmeiro. When he clearly wasn’t . 

[baltfan]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

You have zero proof of this and are just deflecting stats you can’t debate.

I lived that era. He finished in the top 10 in MVP 7 straight years including winning it twice.  His career OBP was .419.  Career OPS+ 156.  Palmeiro was .371 and 132 respectively.