This team isn’t winning anything unless it trades Holliday, Bassallo or Mayo

[LookitsPuck]

The O’s thought highly enough of Ortiz to call him up last year. If he wasn’t traded for Burnes, you can bet that he’d be up here over Urias. Think Ortiz could very well have been your starting 2B with Westy, Gunnar on the left side and Mateo relegated to super utility and PR status. 

But there is/was a surplus of players at 2B for the O’s. Ortiz was blocked. Same happened to Hernaiz, which is why he was traded for Irvin.

[Alasdaire]

1 minute ago, DirtyBird said:

Do we know that there weren't discussions involving Ortiz and starters who weren't moved at the deadline? Maybe a team that stood pat and wouldn't give Elias what he wanted would have benefited by doing so.

We don't know anything re. actual discussions. But assuming your hypothetical is true, it underscores why you don't start from the point of "we have an overabundance/we must move certain players" and reverse engineer a trade from there. Set your value and make a move if it presents itself; but if not, hold on to the asset you have hand picked and manicured for years and hope he either contributes to your team or else accrues even more in value.

[DirtyBird]

4 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

Set your value and make a move if it presents itself; but if not, hold on to the asset you have hand picked and manicured for years and hope he either contributes to your team or else accrues even more in value.

I'd say you set your target and be prepared to offer what you perceive as fair value. I agree, you don't go into it with specific assets you are looking to move.

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

For one, Joey's trade value would be even higher now than it was last summer/spring. So not only would we have a positional upgrade defensively and offensively for this season, but even making the massive assumption that there's going to be a logjam that renders Ortiz useless long term (which should not be assumed), he could now fetch an even bigger bag of chips than before.

The bag of chips is not the right analogy. Corbin Burnes is by no means a big of chips.

You are right, maybe we could have traded Westburg or one of the other INF prospects behind them? Either way, trades are going to have to happen because of the philosophy/strategy that the org was built upon.

IMO what Ortiz, Westburg, and Cowser (to some degree) have done this season is raise the perception around the game how good our prospects really are.

Last year (despite the rankings) there was some question because other than Gunnar we didn't really have any young guys come up and produce. Westburg had no power here after leading the Minors in homers before his June call-up. Cowser wasn't good in his short stint. And Ortiz and Kjerstad didn't really get a chance during their brief call-ups.

Now, many more have come to the Majors (this season) and have shown that there is carryover/translation with what has transpired in the Minor Leagues.

[sportsfan8703]

2 hours ago, DirtyBird said:

This is not true - not even close. We have one top 100 guy outside of those three and he's a 25 year old who hasn't been able to get at bats on our roster.

Those are preseason rankings.  Do you think that McDermott won't be in the top 100 when those lists update post draft/trade deadline?  Also, as far as Norby not getting ABs, we have a really tough roster to crack. We virtually have a dude in All Star consideration at every position.  And/or GG consideration as well.  

I'm guessing that if you take away the big 3, that Povich, McDermott, Kjerstad, and Beavers, would all be top 100 if the various publications came out with lists today.  

[Alasdaire]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

The bag of chips is not the right analogy. Corbin Burnes is by no means a big of chips.

You're misunderstanding the analogy. The people I'm talking about would have traded Ortiz for less than Corbin Burnes last year, ie a bag of chips. It didn't have to be Burnes, because ultimately Ortiz was unnecessary/inferior and the O's desperately needed an upgrade for the immediate term to push them over the edge and win the World Series.

Corbin Burnes isn't a bag of chips, and the only reason the O's have him is because they wouldn't settle and/or overpay last year, which is what would happen if they followed the advice of prisoners of the moment.

[DirtyBird]

7 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Those are preseason rankings.  Do you think that McDermott won't be in the top 100 when those lists update post draft/trade deadline?  Also, as far as Norby not getting ABs, we have a really tough roster to crack. We virtually have a dude in All Star consideration at every position.  And/or GG consideration as well.  

I'm guessing that if you take away the big 3, that Povich, McDermott, Kjerstad, and Beavers, would all be top 100 if the various publications came out with lists today.  

No - McDermott has not improved his stock this year.

Povich could possibly creep in to some top 100's. But if so, why would we move top 100 major league ready pitching depth? I'm really not sure Beavers has improved his stock much either. His numbers at AA are down from when he came up for 34 days last season.

 

[DirtyBird]

13 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

You're misunderstanding the analogy. The people I'm talking about would have traded Ortiz for less than Corbin Burnes last year, ie a bag of chips. It didn't have to be Burnes, because ultimately Ortiz was unnecessary/inferior and the O's desperately needed an upgrade for the immediate term to push them over the edge and win the World Series.

Corbin Burnes isn't a bag of chips, and the only reason the O's have him is because they wouldn't settle and/or overpay last year, which is what would happen if they followed the advice of prisoners of the moment.

If we don't win the World Series this season, is Ortiz for Burnes any better than Ortiz for Montgomery at last year's deadline?

[sportsfan8703]

7 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

No - McDermott has not improved his stock this year.

Povich could possibly creep in to some top 100's. But if so, why would we move top 100 major league ready pitching depth? I'm really not sure Beavers has improved his stock much either. His numbers at AA are down from when he came up for 34 days last season.

 

McDermott is two K's shy of leading the entire milb in K's.  C'mon.  That's an improvement.  WHIP is a weakness, but look at the defense that AAA trots out there.  Growing pains from Holliday, Mayo, and Norby, on the dirt.  Cook isn't masterful at 1B.  Kjerstad isn't a great defender in the OF.  I like our guys down there, but Norfolk isn't a great defensive team.  

[Alasdaire]

3 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

If we don't win the World Series this season, is Ortiz for Burnes any better than Ortiz for Montgomery at last year's deadline?

I'm not totally sure what your point is, but I would say so. The O's had a more realistic shot of winning it all in spring 2024 than they did at the deadline in 2023 since they were at least as good if not better at almost every position. Plus if Burnes wins the Cy Young, that's not nothing.

[ChosenOne21]

8 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

McDermott is two K's shy of leading the entire milb in K's.  C'mon.  That's an improvement.  WHIP is a weakness, but look at the defense that AAA trots out there.  Growing pains from Holliday, Mayo, and Norby, on the dirt.  Cook isn't masterful at 1B.  Kjerstad isn't a great defender in the OF.  I like our guys down there, but Norfolk isn't a great defensive team.  

Dean Kremer led MiLB in strikeouts one year and had better minor league numbers than McDermott. If McDermott does worse than Kremer, is he really going to be our pitching savior?

[DirtyBird]

I won't be apologizing to RZNJ or Moose, who clearly came into this thread to name call and antagonize. I am sure your feelings were not hurt by anything I said.

I am sorry to everyone else who was disturbed by my choice of words.

I doubt this is enough to avoid a 60 day ban.

Good luck at the trade deadline. I hope we can acquire something other than mediocre patchwork pieces.

[OriolesMagic83]

1 hour ago, Alasdaire said:

For one, Joey's trade value would be even higher now than it was last summer/spring. So not only would we have a positional upgrade defensively and offensively for this season, but even making the massive assumption that there's going to be a logjam that renders Ortiz useless long term (which should not be assumed), he could now fetch an even bigger bag of chips than before.

The 2024 O's would likely not have Burnes, so they would be in worse position in the standings and definitely starting pitcing wise. 

[Alasdaire]

1 minute ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

The 2024 O's would likely not have Burnes, so they would be in worse position in the standings and definitely starting pitcing wise. 

How? We're comparing the Orioles in July 2023 before they made any deadline-related moves to the Orioles in February 2024 before the Burnes trade. The latter are at least as good if not clearly superior even without taking Burnes into account.

[sportsfan8703]

18 minutes ago, ChosenOne21 said:

Dean Kremer led MiLB in strikeouts one year and had better minor league numbers than McDermott. If McDermott does worse than Kremer, is he really going to be our pitching savior?

I posted this in the McDermott thread as well.  The overall WHIP this year doesn't tell the whole story.

McDermott has pitched parts of 6 months in AAA.  Here is the monthly WHIP breakdown,

August 23' 25.2 IP 1.05 WHIP

September 23' 12 IP 0.75 WHIP

March 24' 4.1 IP 1.38 WHIP

April 24' 17 IP 2.06 WHIP

May 24' 25.2 IP 1.25 WHIP

June 24' 23.1 IP 1.29 IP

That April 2024 WHIP really skews the numbers.