CF options for 2025

[EddeeEddee]

I remember one discussion several months ago wondering if Holliday could play CF.  Seems pretty far fetched and not sure he'd have the arm for it.  

Mullins has shown some life at the plate lately, so, barring some trade, it's hard to imagine someone else at least starting 2025 as the CF.  

[Jammer7]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

That’s right..how dare you act as if it’s some mystery how to fit him in the lineup.

I don’t get this idea that we move arguably our best defensive IFer at the position they are playing and replace him with a guy who is definitively not better than him at the position, at least right now.

I don’t get this thought. It’s been all over the board. The Os have essentially showed zero thought about moving Westburg in the OF. Meanwhile, we know they have tried Mayo in the OF in practice and start him at first in games and yet we act as if that’s not happening and that we will move a guy with a +5 OAA at third. 
 

 

Well, play this out a bit. Mayo just may improve to a point that he is passable. His bat has more potential than any RH bat on this current team. Of course, his defensive shortcomings could cost us as much value as his offense provides.

Westburg’s throwing motion is not great. The arm is weak for an infielder, and I think it has more to do with the angles at which an infielder throws. He had been making errors quite often as the season progressed until his injury.

Westburg’s throwing may not be as much of an issue in LF, where his athleticism will play and he can have a more elongated throwing motion.

I admit it is a reach. It was an idea to explore. My apologies if this has been talked about much previously. I don’t read the board nearly as much as I used to. The truth is, no one knows what Elias and Hyde will do. Not even you, great exalted one. As always, if my posts make you unhappy, feel free to ignore my terrible thoughts. 

[Sports Guy]

6 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

Well, play this out a bit. Mayo just may improve to a point that he is passable. His bat has more potential than any RH bat on this current team. Of course, his defensive shortcomings could cost us as much value as his offense provides.

Westburg’s throwing motion is not great. The arm is weak for an infielder, and I think it has more to do with the angles at which an infielder throws. He had been making errors quite often as the season progressed until his injury.

Westburg’s throwing may not be as much of an issue in LF, where his athleticism will play and he can have a more elongated throwing motion.

I admit it is a reach. It was an idea to explore. My apologies if this has been talked about much previously. I don’t read the board nearly as much as I used to. The truth is, no one knows what Elias and Hyde will do. Not even you, great exalted one. As always, if my posts make you unhappy, feel free to ignore my terrible thoughts. 

Stop being so overly sensitive and over dramatic. 
 

How much has his “weak arm” cost them this year?  How many guys have reached base because of it? How many outs has his cost us?

[Aristotelian]

8 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

That’s right..how dare you act as if it’s some mystery how to fit him in the lineup.

I don’t get this idea that we move arguably our best defensive IFer at the position they are playing and replace him with a guy who is definitively not better than him at the position, at least right now.

I don’t get this thought. It’s been all over the board. The Os have essentially showed zero thought about moving Westburg in the OF. Meanwhile, we know they have tried Mayo in the OF in practice and start him at first in games and yet we act as if that’s not happening and that we will move a guy with a +5 OAA at third. 
 

 

We do have a need for a RHB capable of good outfield defense. Westburg has the skills to fill that need. 

Whether that is a bigger need than 3B depends on Mayo. Tony's report had Mayo as "making strides" and "can play 3B effectively... with a few more errors". Maybe that was wrong, or maybe we are just seeing a nervous rookie in a small sample. I personally don't have enough info. I can imagine a hypothetical world where Mayo makes up for the 5 OAA with his bat. How bad would his defense have to be for that not to be the case? -3 OAA? -10 OAA? 

https://orioleshangout.com/2023/11/16/orioles-2023-3-prospect-coby-mayo-3b/

 

[Jammer7]

7 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

We do have a need for a RHB capable of good outfield defense. Westburg has the skills to fill that need. 

Whether that is a bigger need than 3B depends on Mayo. Tony's report had Mayo as "making strides" and "can play 3B effectively... with a few more errors". Maybe that was wrong, or maybe we are just seeing a nervous rookie in a small sample. I personally don't have enough info. I can imagine a hypothetical world where Mayo makes up for the 5 OAA with his bat. How bad would his defense have to be for that not to be the case? -3 OAA? -10 OAA? 

https://orioleshangout.com/2023/11/16/orioles-2023-3-prospect-coby-mayo-3b/

 

Agreed. It’s a possibility to maximize what they currently have. A lot has to play out still. That is all I was saying. Not that it is what they should do. 

[Sports Guy]

18 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

We do have a need for a RHB capable of good outfield defense. Westburg has the skills to fill that need. 

Whether that is a bigger need than 3B depends on Mayo. Tony's report had Mayo as "making strides" and "can play 3B effectively... with a few more errors". Maybe that was wrong, or maybe we are just seeing a nervous rookie in a small sample. I personally don't have enough info. I can imagine a hypothetical world where Mayo makes up for the 5 OAA with his bat. How bad would his defense have to be for that not to be the case? -3 OAA? -10 OAA? 

https://orioleshangout.com/2023/11/16/orioles-2023-3-prospect-coby-mayo-3b/

 

So let me get this straight..because we have a “need” for a RHB in the OF, we are going to take a non OFer, stick him out there and put a worse option at third?

I have said many times that I think Mayo can play third at this level. I’m not doubting that.

What I’m doubting is that a team that values defense (and quite frankly needs to improve their defense) will do all of this re-arranging when it doesn’t make you better.

It’s possible that the determination is that Holliday is better in CF or SS than second. It’s possible that they determine Mayo is better at third than first or RF. It’s possible they determine that they like Westburg at second or LF than 3rd. It’s possible that they determine Gunnar is better at third than SS.

Any of those things are possible. It’s just hard for me to imagine that more than 1 of those things happens.

Westburg isn’t 22 years old. You kind of figure he is what he is at this point. The problem is, this whole versatility thing, while great in some ways, does not give us any kind of a read as to where he’s the best. He was very good at second last year and has struggled this year. Third seems like his better position but who knows?

What we do know is this…the Os defense has been worse with Westburg out. The Os defense, overall, has not been good this year.  I just don’t see that meaning they then put Mayo at third for 2025.

Holliday, Gunnar, Mayo, Westburg, Cowser, Adley and Basallo are your long term core guys imo and outside of Adley, we really don’t know what their best positions are long term.
 

I know some will scoff at me saying Gunnar there but I don’t see how anyone can confidently say Gunnar is a SS in 2-3 years. He’s a big guy who has shown some issues in his first 2 years at the position. He’s also young, so he obviously can keep improving. I just personally believe he will be the best third baseman in baseball if he played over everyday, so I can see him moving (not in 2025 but beyond there).  Where would that leave SS?  Who knows. It’s possible the 2026 Os SS isn’t on the team or in the Os org.

For some of these guys, I blame the Os and their quest for versatility. While it’s not a bad thing for players to be versatile, I think it has come at a detriment to these guys in some ways.

Either way, for 2025, it’s just hard to believe the Os are going to do something that makes them worse defensively and Westburg to LF and Mayo to third does just that.

Edited August 17 by Sports Guy

[Jammer7]

20 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Stop being so overly sensitive and over dramatic. 
 

How much has his “weak arm” cost them this year?  How many guys have reached base because of it? How many outs has his cost us?

Yawn. Come on man. Anyone who disagrees with you is dramatic, and just plain wrong. Whatever.

You are likely correct and safe in assuming he is the 3B next year. The Orioles value defense (and I do too) and he is better than Mayo, defensively. 

I do think his arm has been a small issue at 2B. There was a DP opportunity or two this year that I thought it cost. That is just my perspective. As ugly as the throwing motion is sometimes, he usually gets the job done and he will be fine if he stays. He’s a hard worker, and his hands and feet are good enough to make up for some arm issues. He does a lot of little things well, like tag plays. I am undecided where to play him. It depends on what moves are made in the offseason. His versatility is a benefit. 

[Frobby]

8 hours ago, EddeeEddee said:

I remember one discussion several months ago wondering if Holliday could play CF.  Seems pretty far fetched and not sure he'd have the arm for it.  

 

There’s nothing that far-fetched about a middle infielder moving to CF.  This happens all the time in baseball.  Westburg moving to LF isn’t that far-fetched, either.  I’m sure he’d be very solid out there, if that alignment made sense for other reasons.  

[Jammer7]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

So let me get this straight..because we have a “need” for a RHB in the OF, we are going to take a non OFer, stick him out there and put a worse option at third?

I have said many times that I think Mayo can play third at this level. I’m not doubting that.

What I’m doubting is that a team that values defense (and quite frankly needs to improve their defense) will do all of this re-arranging when it doesn’t make you better.

It’s possible that the determination is that Holliday is better in CF or SS than second. It’s possible that they determine Mayo is better at third than first or RF. It’s possible they determine that they like Westburg at second or LF than 3rd. It’s possible that they determine Gunnar is better at third than SS.

Any of those things are possible. It’s just hard for me to imagine that more than 1 of those things happens.

Westburg isn’t 22 years old. You kind of figure he is what he is at this point. The problem is, this whole versatility thing, while great in some ways, does not give us any kind of a read as to where he’s the best. He was very good at second last year and has struggled this year. Third seems like his better position but who knows?

What we do know is this…the Os defense has been worse with Westburg out. The Os defense, overall, has not been good this year.  I just don’t see that meaning they then put Mayo at third for 2025.

Holliday, Gunnar, Mayo, Westburg, Cowser, Adley and Basallo are your long term core guys imo and outside of Adley, we really don’t know what their best positions are long term.
 

I know some will scoff at me saying Gunnar there but I don’t see how anyone can confidently say Gunnar is a SS in 2-3 years. He’s a big guy who has shown some issues in his first 2 years at the position. He’s also young, so he obviously can keep improving. I just personally believe he will be the best third baseman in baseball if he played over everyday, so I can see him moving (not in 2025 but beyond there).  Where would that leave SS?  Who knows. It’s possible the 2026 Os SS isn’t on the team or in the Os org.

For some of these guys, I blame the Os and their quest for versatility. While it’s not a bad thing for players to be versatile, I think it has come at a detriment to these guys in some ways.

Either way, for 2025, it’s just hard to believe the Os are going to do something that makes them worse defensively and Westburg to LF and Mayo to third does just that.

I do not disagree with you, overall. I have shared the same thoughts and concerns.

Westburg is a good enough athlete and hard worker to consider the move. The pieces do not all fit in the infield for everyday PT. Mayo could move to a 1B/DH role. I agree that is more likely than Westburg moving to an OF role. However, I think they want to see him play 3B as long as possible, and as long as he makes progress they will keep him there. What about Basallo? Do they move him to a 1B/DH and part-time back up catcher role? Are Mayo, Basallo and Westburg everyday bats? I think so. Where do they all fit?

Is there more value in his bat than having a guy like Urias win a GG? Maybe, if the defense is somewhere in the neighborhood of average. Maybe. In fairness, we do have a lot of 2S and change-up reliant pitchers and ground ball outs need to turn into ground ball outs. 

I think Gunnar has to stay at SS for the time being. I think Mateo is a much better defender there. Gunnar has to mature and keep working hard like he does. I agree there are defensive issues and it hurts us badly at times, but he will improve. 

I don’t have the answers, just discussion of possible options. I have never seen Westburg play the OF. Perhaps that is an abomination that should not occur. I want his bat in the lineup everyday, along with Gunnar, Jackson, Coby and the following year, Basallo. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Jammer7 said:

I do not disagree with you, overall. I have shared the same thoughts and concerns.

Westburg is a good enough athlete and hard worker to consider the move. The pieces do not all fit in the infield for everyday PT. Mayo could move to a 1B/DH role. I agree that is more likely than Westburg moving to an OF role. However, I think they want to see him play 3B as long as possible, and as long as he makes progress they will keep him there. What about Basallo? Do they move him to a 1B/DH and part-time back up catcher role? Are Mayo, Basallo and Westburg everyday bats? I think so. Where do they all fit?

Is there more value in his bat than having a guy like Urias win a GG? Maybe, if the defense is somewhere in the neighborhood of average. Maybe. In fairness, we do have a lot of 2S and change-up reliant pitchers and ground ball outs need to turn into ground ball outs. 

I think Gunnar has to stay at SS for the time being. I think Mateo is a much better defender there. Gunnar has to mature and keep working hard like he does. I agree there are defensive issues and it hurts us badly at times, but he will improve. 

I don’t have the answers, just discussion of possible options. I have never seen Westburg play the OF. Perhaps that is an abomination that should not occur. I want his bat in the lineup everyday, along with Gunnar, Jackson, Coby and the following year, Basallo. 

I don’t doubt that Westburg could handle the OF..whether or not the LF in OPaCy is for him or not is tough to say.

I’m not sure why they need to see more out of Mayo at third. Again, I think he can play there but he’s probably the third best third baseman on the team. That doesn’t mean he won’t be there because the totality of the defense has to be what’s important.

That has been part of my Holliday at SS argument. If he can be good there and Gunnar is elite at third, that could end up being the better alignment. But Holliday isn’t good there right now and we don’t know that he will be.

Point being that I don’t believe player A has to be better than player B for player A to play a certain position however, where you put player A and player B has to be what’s best for the overall defense.

In this case, sticking Westburg in arguably the toughest LF in baseball and Mayo at third just doesn’t seem to be a way to make this overall defense the best defense we can field.

Mayo in RF and first base makes the most sense to me if he can handle those positions. That solves a lot of the issues right there and they are things that they either are doing or are/have reportedly worked on doing.  

[Aristotelian]

32 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

So let me get this straight..because we have a “need” for a RHB in the OF, we are going to take a non OFer, stick him out there and put a worse option at third?

I have said many times that I think Mayo can play third at this level. I’m not doubting that.

What I’m doubting is that a team that values defense (and quite frankly needs to improve their defense) will do all of this re-arranging when it doesn’t make you better.

It’s possible that the determination is that Holliday is better in CF or SS than second. It’s possible that they determine Mayo is better at third than first or RF. It’s possible they determine that they like Westburg at second or LF than 3rd. It’s possible that they determine Gunnar is better at third than SS.

Any of those things are possible. It’s just hard for me to imagine that more than 1 of those things happens.

Westburg isn’t 22 years old. You kind of figure he is what he is at this point. The problem is, this whole versatility thing, while great in some ways, does not give us any kind of a read as to where he’s the best. He was very good at second last year and has struggled this year. Third seems like his better position but who knows?

What we do know is this…the Os defense has been worse with Westburg out. The Os defense, overall, has not been good this year.  I just don’t see that meaning they then put Mayo at third for 2025.

Holliday, Gunnar, Mayo, Westburg, Cowser, Adley and Basallo are your long term core guys imo and outside of Adley, we really don’t know what their best positions are long term.
 

I know some will scoff at me saying Gunnar there but I don’t see how anyone can confidently say Gunnar is a SS in 2-3 years. He’s a big guy who has shown some issues in his first 2 years at the position. He’s also young, so he obviously can keep improving. I just personally believe he will be the best third baseman in baseball if he played over everyday, so I can see him moving (not in 2025 but beyond there).  Where would that leave SS?  Who knows. It’s possible the 2026 Os SS isn’t on the team or in the Os org.

For some of these guys, I blame the Os and their quest for versatility. While it’s not a bad thing for players to be versatile, I think it has come at a detriment to these guys in some ways.

Either way, for 2025, it’s just hard to believe the Os are going to do something that makes them worse defensively and Westburg to LF and Mayo to third does just that.

I agree with all of the above, I just don't have the same certainty as you. The biggest difference is I am not so sure that Mayo's defense is as bad as you think. Maybe it is, I just don't know that it is.

I have always thought Mayo at 1B would be the most likely option, but if he could stick at 3B that would push Westburg to another position.

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Aristotelian said:

I agree with all of the above, I just don't have the same certainty as you. The biggest difference is I am not so sure that Mayo's defense is as bad as you think. Maybe it is, I just don't know that it is.

I have always thought Mayo at 1B would be the most likely option, but if he could stick at 3B that would push Westburg to another position.

As bad as I think it is?  I just said, several times, that I think he can be a ML 3rd baseman. I just don’t think he would be on this team.

[ChuckS]

8 hours ago, EddeeEddee said:

I remember one discussion several months ago wondering if Holliday could play CF.  Seems pretty far fetched and not sure he'd have the arm for it.  

Mullins has shown some life at the plate lately, so, barring some trade, it's hard to imagine someone else at least starting 2025 as the CF.  

I’m not advocating Holliday in center, but you think his arm is worse than Mullins? 

[ChuckS]

My overall take is that you need two CFs to effectively play the OF in Camden Yards, and in addition to that our LF needs to have an above average arm.

Unless we pursue someone outside the organization, it will have to be Mullins and Cowser for 2025. 

The IF is much simpler. I think Mayo needs to be a first baseman and perhaps he can play some RF. 

[hydropups]

It does confuse me that anyone sees the future infield as something other than Westburg, Henderson, Holliday, and Mayo going from left to right.

As for the outfield, I like Cowser as a backup CF. I’ve had enough of Mullins as a starter, but not sure what other option we have. I think we ride it out with Ced.