Still think this team didn't choke under pressure?

[Bemorewins]

22 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Absolutely.  The Rays get back their top 3 starters next year. The Sox are on our heels and have 4 top 25 prospects with $$$. The NYY are the Yankees. Maybe we finish above the Jays. Things are getting dire and no one wants to admit it.  I would clean house of guys like Mounty and Urias. Let the young guys play. See what you have. Holliday has to turn into a pure hitter.  Heston needs to develop.  If you trust your development people, let them play 

The prospects part doesn't scare me. Rarely do young players (regardless of talent level) come to MLB and become difference makers in this era. (I think we saw that first hand the last couple of years). And we have money too.

I agree that the Rays will be much better. But I don't agree that things are dire. But we certainly need to make significant meaningful changes. No more smartest guy in the room type of moves (as the main moves to improve the team). No more bargain basement moves to pass off as legitimate attempts at serious improvement. Actually real big boy/serious investment moves.

[dtk9119]

20 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

4 out of 5 home grown chokers.

BRUTAL. And a Duquette holdover produces the only run in 2 games.

[spleen1015]

Just now, Tony-OH said:

What rule did I break? Stop crying. You don't like it, move along.

I'm leaving, don't worry.

Saying Adley needs to go to fat boy camp violates rule 5, but it's your forum. You can do whatever you want.

[baltfan]

1 minute ago, UMDTerrapins said:

I’m pissed. Ready to fight, or at least break something. But this thread should be locked and deleted in the morning. It’s a breeding ground for moronically bad takes. 

Why?  So many for the beginning of this series predicted this anemic offensive output. Shake things up.  

[Teddy OBP]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm pretty annoyed they wasted the Burnes year.

They wasted a year of Adley.

They wasted a year of Gunnar.

They traded off a lot of the farm surplus.

Adley wasted a year of Adley.

Hitting coaches have to go.

I’d make Hyde interview for his job.

Get your legos and costumes and golden tee the F out of here. Be men. Be professionals.

I’m willing to be optimistic about Holliday and Mayo and to an extent Heston. We’ll see if they work on their games this offseason and how they show up in the spring.

I’m also willing to be optimistic about new ownership and their willingness to spend - I’d make a serious run at keeping Burnes and a half hearted one at Santander if the market isn’t crazy. Would 100% go get a prime years professional hitter to put in this lineup.

 

[Tony-OH]

3 minutes ago, Hallas said:

This seems like a wacky conclusion to make considering the Orioles have a ROY frontrunner on the team this year, the ROY from last year who just finished an 8 WAR season, and the ROY runner up from 2 years ago.  And lets not forget players like Westburg who weren't eligible for ROY voting but went to the ASG.

Now, are they a bunch of choke artists?  Yeah, they are.  Maybe Hyde deserves some responsibility, maybe we need some new players.  But it's not like they aren't having success in the majors.  They weren't even having trouble really against playoff teams in the season, they just collectively take a dump in October.

The Orioles were under .500 over their last 82 games and got swept out of the playoffs by scoring one run. 

Cowser, who hits empty, worthless home runs might get the rookie of the year, but it wont be because he's some great hitter. He's one of the absolute worse hitters in baseball in the clutch. The statistics show it. 

So yeah, Cowser might win the rookie of the year, but he absolutely is one of the bigger chokers I've ever witnessed in all of the years that I've watch baseball. He's the last guy you want up in a pressure situation, and his WPA shows this to be true.

[allquixotic]

9 minutes ago, baltfan said:

They also need to look to see if the way we are training hitters in the minors is hurting their major league performance. The selectivity that works in the minors with mediocre pitching isn’t going to work as well in the MLB and will work even worse in the playoffs.  We need guys that can hit good pitches. Too many of our guys can only hit mistakes. 

Yep, we've been a mistake-hitting team for about 10 years. We (certain fans) keep saying this over and over and over, but nothing ever changes.

A mistake-hitting team can crush bad pitching like it's the Home Run Derby, but hits well below-average against actually good pitching. That is who we are. To have any chance to win in the playoffs, you need to have at least a few guys who have a decent chance of a base hit against a good pitcher.

After all, good pitchers aren't invulnerable, unhittable perfection machines. Sometimes they miss their spots a little bit. Sometimes they walk people. Sometimes you can tell whether their pitch is a ball or a strike out of the hand.

A team wins a pennant or the World Series because they have players in their lineup who can deal with the subtle imperfections of a good pitcher and still get something done against them, at least some of the time.

Like, yeah, Bobby Witt Jr still strikes out sometimes, but he also got game-winning hits in two consecutive playoff games. The O's don't have anyone with anywhere near that kind of talent on the team. They all just swing blindly for the fences and guess at what's being pitched at them.

Mistake-hitting teams can win a lot of games in the regular season, because there are many innings pitched by bad pitchers in the regular season, and it's relatively easy to clobber them. But there aren't very many innings pitched by bad pitchers in the playoffs. Even the Orioles didn't have many badly pitched innings in the playoffs. The Royals just capitalized on our pitchers' imperfections, while our guys don't even know what that means.

[baltfan]

Just now, spleen1015 said:

I'm leaving, don't worry.

Saying Adley needs to go to fat boy camp violates rule 5, but it's your forum. You can do whatever you want.

Maybe he mistyped “frat boy.”  

[waroriole]

9 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Where does Urias play if westburg and Holliday are playing?  Do you trust Hyde to keep him on the bench?

Fire Hyde so that’s not a problem. 

[EddeeEddee]

1 minute ago, spleen1015 said:

I'm leaving, don't worry.

Saying Adley needs to go to fat boy camp violates rule 5, but it's your forum. You can do whatever you want.

Don't leave.  Tony's just passionate that's all -- especially today.  People will calm down.  Things will get better.

[Ripken]

Lots of failures and mistakes have been made.  First and foremost is the draft-and-development process, almost exclusively for position players, to create hitters who excel at controlling the strike zone, recognizing pitches, and using a balanced all-fields approach.  Not only would that create a very strong lineup but Elias would have so many of these guys in the pipeline that he'd be able to make trades for all the pitching he needs while also restocking the system with prospects.  This is the core tenet of the Elias regime.  He spent a few seasons setting records for futility and making Angelos rich only to have failed miserably at what he was trying to create. 

The coaching staff is a mess and should be replaced.  Some of the veterans should not be retained.  New direction and better players need to be added.  Honestly, I don't think Elias is capable of doing much of that even if Dave wants to spend, which we hope is true but don't really know.  Otherwise, I don't think the Orioles will make the playoffs next season. 

[Hallas]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

The Orioles were under .500 over their last 82 games and got swept out of the playoffs by scoring one run. 

Cowser, who hits empty, worthless home runs might get the rookie of the year, but it wont be because he's some great hitter. He's one of the absolute worse hitters in baseball in the clutch. The statistics show it. 

So yeah, Cowser might win the rookie of the year, but he absolutely is one of the bigger chokers I've ever witnessed in all of the years that I've watch baseball. He's the last guy you want up in a pressure situation, and his WPA shows this to be true.

That seems like a Cowser problem between the ears and not so much of a problem with the Orioles hitting development.  Which sure, I agree with, but I'm not damning the player development system because 1 product of that system psychs himself up so much in clutch situations and can't hit his way out of a paper bag as a result.

[Tony-OH]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

It takes time?

He's had:

The 2019 season.

The 2020 season.

The 2021 season.

The 2022 season.

The 2023 season.

The 2024 season.

This team was not as successful this year as it was last year and it appears to be in a weaker position going forward.

I'm not saying fire him but he's had enough time to win a playoff game.

100%. Elias has gotten his team to win 90+ games two years in a row, and that's commendable, but the man hasn't built a team that can win a playoff game yet and he's been here's since what, November of 2018?

One more year then it's time to move on without significant playoff success.

[ThomasTomasz]

17 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

I'll just ad done more thing...I started a thread a couple of weeks back about my concerns around our lack of development of bat to ball skills, and how I wasn't seeing it.  It wasn't well received, as if I was overreacting to a slump, and not a systemic problem.   Is there anyone out there who still feels I didn't/don't have a valid concern?

I don’t think it is doom and gloom on Elias and what is being built here, but this is it.  Full stop.  THIS IS IT. 

You can win regular season games with playing for the three outcomes.  But you aren’t going to win those games in the playoffs if you can’t put the bat on the ball, put the ball in play, have some speed and move some runners.  This is where the rubber needs to meet the road and that some players need to be brought in who can do this, and you need to teach some of this to the talent already here. 

And if I could bring in one player that is a very reasonable get?  I’d overpay for Luis Arraez.  High average, yeah he doesn’t walk but he also doesn’t strike out.  The ball gets put into play. 

[wildcard]

I predict the O's will win 100 games in 2025.

Yes they need a new hitting approach with RISP.   Who implements that I don't know.

I was pretty impressed with the team prior to July 1st.   Hyde  and Elias  will stay.

Something is wrong is Adley that he can't hit right-hand pitching.  He did in 2023.  Neither Westburg nor Mountcastle were at full strength for the playoffs.

They get their injured players back for ST they will be ready to go. (Not Bradish or Means)

Holliday and Mayo will be worked into the team next year at some point and they will have decent rookie seasons is my guess.   Basallo will be MLB's #1 prospect targeted to be on the team in 2026.

There is a lot more to say and we have all off season to say it.