Please practice your catching, House

[Sports Guy]

Somebody posted something about how DT told House something like, "Happy you're here... I wanted you here before, but couldn't get it done until now"... or similar words... as to who posted it where, I have no idea...

I don't know the details either, but it appears that we have 2 people who are brand new around here as decision-makers (DT and AM), yet you seem to assume that there is some Warehouse Disease that makes everybody stupid, as evidenced by previous decision-makers being stupid. Sorta like the whole "10 years" yada yada somehow dooms DT and AM from having any sense.

If DT is actually a believer in the whole pitching-and-defense thing, then he'll want House at DH or a corner. But I don't know if that's really some credo he has vs. whether he was just looking at his roster and trying to make lemonade...

Until i see real results, yes, these guys are all lumped into the same group.

Although that probably isn't fair to DT.

[os1971]

Did you notice the name Curtis Thigpen on that list?

The same Thigpen who started at catcher against us the other day...The same Thigpen who caught a good game from AJ Burnett.

Did you notice that Thigpen allowed 70 SB's in 746 innings and House allowed 92 in 565.

[RShack]

Until i see real results, yes, these guys are all lumped into the same group.

Although that probably isn't fair to DT.

So you're gonna assume they're morons until they prove otherwise... because you think the people before them were morons...

To what do you attribute their likely stupidity? Something about having Oriole paychecks? Asbestos in the Warehouse? What might it be? There is no genetic relationship. It's not like either one were students of the previous morons. So why would you expect them to be morons?

[rolliefingers]

I think there was an interview with Trembley on Saturday where he was gushing about House and what a great story he is, etc. FWIW.

[Why Not?]

I think there was an interview with Trembley on Saturday where he was gushing about House and what a great story he is, etc. FWIW.

I heard that. I think they worked at some clinics together or something.

But I know I wouldn't put my best buddy behind the plate if it was going to result in a track meet on the basepaths.

[Moose Milligan]

Did you notice that Thigpen allowed 70 SB's in 746 innings and House allowed 92 in 565.

Lol, niiiiiiiice

[Lucky Jim]

I heard that. I think they worked at some clinics together or something.

But I know I wouldn't put my best buddy behind the plate if it was going to result in a track meet on the basepaths.

Are you saying we don't want something like this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12976739

Nats win, but Robinson brought to tears

Washington manager cries after removing catcher in middle of inning

Tough call

Washington manager Frank Robinson cries at a press conference after a win over Houston. Robinson was sad about taking out catcher Matt LeCroy.

WASHINGTON - Tears of sadness streamed down both of Frank Robinson’s cheeks, and his voice quivered, even in the aftermath of an 8-5 victory. The Washington Nationals manager had been cornered into a move rarely seen in baseball, the benching of a catcher in the middle of an inning.

The Houston Astros had stolen seven bases — the most by any team in the majors in nearly four years — against third-string catcher Matthew LeCroy. After three batters in the seventh inning, with the tying run on base and shortly after LeCroy had committed his second error by throwing a ball into center field, Robinson pulled him for emergency catcher Robert Fick.

“If my daddy was managing this team, I’m sure he would have done the same thing,” LeCroy said.

Story continues below ↓advertisement

Robinson took it a lot harder.

“I feel for him,” Robinson said. “And I hope the fans understand. And I just appreciate him hanging in there as long as he did.”

[RShack]

I heard that. I think they worked at some clinics together or something.

Comments on the DT-House relationship here: http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-osnotes0818,0,3821876.story

and here: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070814&content_id=2148406&vkey=news_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal&partnered=rss_bal

About quote, DT said: ""I told him today: 'I tried to get you up here earlier and it just didn't happen. I don't know how much playing time I can promise, but I want you to just get settled in.' " as found here: http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-osnotes0814,0,3559728.story?track=rss

[Zaimoku]

If he can't hold runners then we'll find out soon enough.

We might, but Orioles management already found out at Norfolk this year. The upshot is that they're making him the emergency catcher, not the #2 catcher.

[Zaimoku]

AAA staff thinks he's good enough to start at catcher, we think he's good enough to deserve a shot to start at catcher...what are we arguing about again?

What makes you think the AAA staff thought he was good enough to start at catcher?

It's more likely the AAA staff was told to start him at catcher to see what they have, and to help him improve if they could.

They used to start Jack Cust in the outfield for the same reason, but that doesn't mean he can play out there without a manager holding his breath.

What people are STILL ignoring: the manager of Norfolk is Gary Allenson, a former major league catcher. Do you REALLY think he doesn't know if House can catch or not?

The only reason people are still discussing this is that there are a few people who refuse to connect the dots.

[tim27]

What makes you think the AAA staff thought he was good enough to start at catcher?

It's more likely the AAA staff was told to start him at catcher to see what they have, and to help him improve if they could.

They used to start Jack Cust in the outfield for the same reason, but that doesn't mean he can play out there without a manager holding his breath.

What people are STILL ignoring: the manager of Norfolk is Gary Allenson, a former major league catcher. Do you REALLY think he doesn't know if House can catch or not?

The only reason people are still discussing this is that there are a few people who refuse to connect the dots.

No, the real reason is that there are a few people who think they know more than the professionals. It really pisses me off to tell you the truth. Are the Orioles badly managed? You bet. But that doesn't make every goober with time to read baseball proespectus and baseball america everyday and post 45,000 times on an internet chatroom any better. If Dave Tremebley doesn't think House can catch 40-50 times a year without signifigant problems I'm willing to believe him. And, btw, JR House isn't Mike Piazza. We're talking about a guy with a sub .820 ops in AAA as a 27 yo! Funny how being 27 in AAA only seems to matter when it supports your position. Does he hit better than most backup catchers? Probably. Is he worse defensively? Undoubtedly. The guy could have value as a 3rd catcher/1b/dh type, and imo he does for the O's because they hit so poorly against lefties, but he isn't the difference between 78 wins and 90, or even 81 for that matter. And to act as if the O's are the epitome of stupid for not realizing this, and agreeing with the "widsom" of this board, is beyond arrogant. But what should I expect.

[now]

Okay, let's bring it down to simple stats.

House allows 1.5 SB per game.

Bako allows .5 SB per game.

Difference = 1 SB per game (1 base).

OPS Difference = 100

Question: how many bases is 100 pts of OPS worth? (Anyone know?)

Handler of pitchers: effect = nil ("Catcher's ERA" proven meaningless)

Clubhouse presence: who knows? Has anyone ever studied comparative W-L records of players switching teams? Similar I suppose to calculating CERA ...

[DrungoHazewood]

No, the real reason is that there are a few people who think they know more than the professionals. It really pisses me off to tell you the truth. Are the Orioles badly managed? You bet. But that doesn't make every goober with time to read baseball proespectus and baseball america everyday and post 45,000 times on an internet chatroom any better.

There are people who have no connection to major league baseball who know more than folks who've been employeed by MLB for 30 years. For a very long time, continuing into today, baseball has been run as a old boy's network that actively discouraged innovative thinking. It's taken 30 years for a lot of people to get on board with OPS as a beter metric than batting average - and that's far from universal.

You'll lose a lot of bets assuming all old baseball guys, and all employees of the Baltimore Orioles, are smarter than everyone who doesn't draw a paycheck from MLB.

In any field, being an informed outsider often gives you a different perspective and frees you from biases implicit to being an insider.

If Dave Tremebley doesn't think House can catch 40-50 times a year without signifigant problems I'm willing to believe him.

Are you really? Because most of those who are terrified of giving House a chance to prove himself seem to have formed an opinion on him months ago and aren't willing to accept even a brief trial.

And, btw, JR House isn't Mike Piazza. We're talking about a guy with a sub .820 ops in AAA as a 27 yo! Funny how being 27 in AAA only seems to matter when it supports your position.

No one has suggested he is. The only thing JR House's age is relevant to is his career trajectory. Being 27 means he's probably as good as he'll ever get, and will slowly decline from this point. But being 27 has almost nothing to do with how high that current peak is, or whether he's an asset the 2008 Orioles can utilize to win more games - which he almost certainly is.

Does he hit better than most backup catchers? Probably.

Probably - no it's more like almost certainly. I firmly believe he's at least the equal of Ramon Hernandez as a hitter. If he were a good defensive catcher he'd be a major league All Star and on his way to being a very rich man. Even as a poor defender he's a valuable major league player.

Is he worse defensively? Undoubtedly.

You're letting your biases creep in here. We know what type of hitter House is - we have quite a bit of hard data on that. We know he's undoubtably a major league hitter. We have very little hard data on his fielding ability.

What you've done is try to obscure the hard data and use qualitative observations of his defense in a few games as absolute proof of his shortcomings. You're a lawyer who's trying to get the jury to ignore the DNA and the fingerprints while putting blind faith in other circumstantial evidence.

House may well be a very bad defender, but we have much more objective evidence that he's a very good hitter.

The guy could have value as a 3rd catcher/1b/dh type, and imo he does for the O's because they hit so poorly against lefties, but he isn't the difference between 78 wins and 90, or even 81 for that matter. And to act as if the O's are the epitome of stupid for not realizing this, and agreeing with the "widsom" of this board, is beyond arrogant. But what should I expect.

Your arrogance is just as alarming, as is your assumption that the Orioles (or any major league team) always knows what they're doing and always makes the logical decision. I can point to dozens of cases over the last 10 years where the Orioles made utterly illogical choices that cost them many dozens of games.

Ignoring the small things is one reason the Orioles have been so bad for so long. They've treated the bench as something you only use in an emergency, they pinch hit like a team of schoolgirls, and they play veterans and gamers over demonstrably better players to the detriment of the team's win/loss record. Every one of those decisions was defended by the front office apologists here as "just a little meaningless thing that probably only makes the difference between 78 wins and 80." After witnessing 20 or 30 of these decisions I'd kind of like to have those extra 40 or 60 wins that result from just doing the right thing.

[DrungoHazewood]

I disagree completely. It appears to me that they believe that House can not defensively perform at a minimumly competent level for a ML catcher. I think Bako could go down with a season ending injury tomorrow and House still would not be the primary back up catcher. I may be wrong, but this is how it appears. He wasn't brought up to back up Bako when Ramon went down. Castillo was brought up.

This is the point that is being missed IMHO. He wasn't even the third option in anyone's mind as a defensive catcher. Instead, they brought up a really, really old guy who can't hit a lick. If Ramon and Bako went down, it wouldn't surprise to me Castillo and Whiteside assume the one/two roles in the majors. If you can't see that they have major concerns about House's defensive ability at catcher, then you just aren't looking.

This isn't about some equation where they are weighing contributions in different areas. They are appear to believe his catching defense is so inadequate, there is no point in having the remainder of the discussion. I think I told you guys that they stopped using House at catcher and started using him at first during the week I was in ST but I can't remember. I don't believe he was used as the catcher more than one or twice in games during his last couple weeks in ST.

I suppose we can assume that DT (who was a major part of ST), Perlozzo (an excellent defensive guy), Flanny, Duquette, etc.... are just bumbling idiots and demand that they play him at catcher to "prove" that he isn't adequate to the fans. I just don't know that this is a particularly rational thought. If they play him there for the rest of the season, I'll be happy because this argument will get decided one way or the other. However, I don't think I'll call them names and assume they're stupid if they don't do it. We all have our rights to our opinions though.

From Trembley's comments it seems that this may not be a universal opinion in the organization. Maybe I'm wrong, but when Trembley says "I tried to get you here earlier" he's saying that he'd rather have House than the really old guy who can't hit a lick.

[Frobby]

There are people who have no connection to major league baseball who know more than folks who've been employeed by MLB for 30 years. For a very long time, continuing into today, baseball has been run as a old boy's network that actively discouraged innovative thinking. It's taken 30 years for a lot of people to get on board with OPS as a beter metric than batting average - and that's far from universal.

You'll lose a lot of bets assuming all old baseball guys, and all employees of the Baltimore Orioles, are smarter than everyone who doesn't draw a paycheck from MLB.

This is probably a true statement, but I feel you fall back on this far too often. All the available evidence -- statistical, anecdotal, and inferential -- is that House would be a very poor defensive catcher by major league standards. And I will agree with you that the statistical evidence also shows that House would be a very good hitter for a back-up catcher, certainly way better than Paul Bako. So it basically becomes a defense vs. offense trade-off. How you weigh that trade-off depends on a lot of things, but mostly, how bad will his defense be and how good will his offense be.

Can we start with this question: assume House would allow one extra SB per game. What is that worth? Then we can go from there.