O's sign Russ Ortiz

[Cokeman]

The thing is, if you give him the option, you could trade him the offseason. Without it, he is just someone you are using to ride out the year.

If Mazzone fixes him, we will not reap any long term benefits from it unless he does it immediately and we can deal him July 31.

I know he's already getting paid pretty good by Arizona, but maybe he wouldn't sign an option without a bigger payday from the O's this year...probably a stretch, but who knows.

[Sports Guy]

I know he's already getting paid pretty good by Arizona, but maybe he wouldn't sign an option without a bigger payday from the O's this year...probably a stretch, but who knows.

Possible.

I did just think of a problem with this signing...What if he is good? Does that make them believe "he is back" and that they try to give him a 2-3 year deal?

That would suck.

[markpolis]

The thing is, if you give him the option, you could trade him the offseason. Without it, he is just someone you are using to ride out the year.

If Mazzone fixes him, we will not reap any long term benefits from it unless he does it immediately and we can deal him July 31.

It was probably discussed but the sides couldn't agree on a price. Just remember, Mazzone will still be with the Orioles next year so if Ortiz does turn it around that should give us the advantage. I'm hoping this let's us package RLo and Javy for a good young bat and then possibly trade Ortiz for a prospect in the next month. By that time Penn should be ready to replace Ortiz in the rotation.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I'm wondering if this is less a setup for a trade NOW then for a trade in mid-July/deadline.

Penn is probably out until at least then and Loewen, as well as he has pitched as a 22 year-old from AA, has pitched like a 22 year-old from AA.

Bringing in Ortiz allows you to kill some time by sending down Loewen to AAA and let him face the AAAA guys who are just short of ML-caliber, and burn through them. It also allows time for Rodrigo to continue his resurgence and increase his value.

I bet we definately see a trade for Rodrigo, but not until close to the deadline. By then both Penn and Loewen should be pitching in AAA, and if one is pitching well he can be brought up, and if both are we can trade/drop Ortiz.

[Sports Guy]

Signing him without an option is just dumb. Tell me, which teams were going to sign Ortiz and put him into their rotation? If there was such a team then more power to them. As far as I'm concerned we are giving this guy a break with no guarantee that we will be the beneficiary.

Right...He came here, eseentially, to use Mazzone.

In his mind, he can use MAzzone, get fixed and then get some other stupid team to sign him long term again next year...The Orioles could be that stupid team.

I like the signing when you look at in the context of low risk/high reward but i am not sure i sign him without an extension unless Rlo is going to be dealt within a week.

[El Gordo]

Right...He came here, eseentially, to use Mazzone.

In his mind, he can use MAzzone, get fixed and then get some other stupid team to sign him long term again next year...The Orioles could be that stupid team.

I like the signing when you look at in the context of low risk/high reward but i am not sure i sign him without an extension unless Rlo is going to be dealt within a week.

In another thread BB hinted that the O's might be looking for something better than Shealy. Could there be a trade of Roddy and Javy to Texas for say Botts and Barajas? That gives Texas a back up C/DH and a mid rotation guy and us a blocked 1B prospect and a back up C to replace Javy. Of course we would have to include some cash for Javy's salary.

[RShack]

I think we don't know what kind of deal or understanding they have about Ortiz. I think it's all just speculation.

Another thing I don't know is if they ever just have "understandings". I know that teams do... for example, about "players to be named later". I know that's different, because teams need to be able to trust each other, while a 1-time player contract is different. But still...

[RShack]

Loewen is now down to AAA and Ortiz has taken his place.

Man, I really would actually be happy with this move but I just don't understand it if it's only for this year.

I don't know any more than you do, but I think one *possible* explanation is:

• We have 4 starters who look like we can more-or-less trust.
• We need 5, so we're 1 short.
• They don't think that Loewen is all-the-sudden gonna stop throwing BB's.
• They don't think Penn is gonna charge in here any day now, all ready to save the day.
• So, what they need is an innings-eater to hold down the fort while Penn and Loewen get more-ready.
• Ortiz costs them nothing in return, and they're paying him the same amount they're paying Rogers.

If Leo can somehow get Ortiz to be who he was before last year, what's wrong with that?

[EC_oriole]

What is the evidence that Mazzone can fix him? He sported progressively worse ERA's every year since 2001 and that includes his stay in Atlanta with Mazzone where he posted an ERA's of 3.81 and 4.13. I can buy the past two years are an abbreviation and he can bounce back to be an effective starter again but keep in mind his years with Mazzone were average/mediocre for him at that point in his career so it's not like it's a situation like Jorge Sosa where Mazzone got career years out of him. Basically, we just signed Chan Ho Park. If he starts in Ottawa and pitches his way into the roster taking Lopez's spot after a trade this is a good deal, if he's starting in Loewen's spot 5 days from now this is a horrible deal.

[Sports Guy]

We have 4 starters who look like we can more-or-less trust.

What has Ortiz shown the last 18 months to make you or the Orioles think he can be trusted?

They don't think that Loewen is all-the-sudden gonna stop throwing BB's.

Might be true but Ortiz has always walked a ton of hitters.

If Leo can somehow get Ortiz to be who he was before last year, what's wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with it but we are not getting enough out of it.

As i said, if we move RLo very quickly, then this is a good move. Other than that, without the option year, the move goes from a very good move to just an OK move.

Again, low risk/high reward but what is that reward if we can't trade him?

[BaltimoreTerp]

Loewen is now down to AAA and Ortiz has taken his place.

Man, I really would actually be happy with this move but I just don't understand it if it's only for this year. It would make more sense if we were about to trade Rodrigo, but if that was the case we would just put Ortiz in the pen until Rodrigo is dealt soon. I guess the next best possible explanation is that Rodrigo will be moved before the deadline and Loewen will be up then? But then what about Penn?

Maybe one of the young guys get traded?

If a move the team makes can possibly help us out long term in any way, we should cover that ground IMO. We didnt' do that with Ortiz if there is no option year included.

Like I said earlier, it kills time where we let Loewen dominate Ottawa, and give Penn time to come back, and worst comes to worst we trade/drop him if Penn and Loewen are both pitching well by the deadline.

The ultimate question is, is it better long-term to have Loewen on this team right now, or is it better to let him have some time in AAA and give Ortiz a chance and maybe get something for HIM at the deadline along with the Lopez twins.

[BaltimoreTerp]

What is the evidence that Mazzone can fix him? He sported progressively worse ERA's every year since 2001 and that includes his stay in Atlanta with Mazzone where he posted an ERA's of 3.81 and 4.13. I can buy the past two years are an abbreviation and he can bounce back to be an effective starter again but keep in mind his years with Mazzone were average/mediocre for him at that point in his career so it's not like it's a situation like Jorge Sosa where Mazzone got career years out of him. Basically, we just signed Chan Ho Park. If he starts in Ottawa and pitches his way into the roster taking Lopez's spot after a trade this is a good deal, if he's starting in Loewen's spot 5 days from now this is a horrible deal.

For the record, Chan Ho Park is 5-4 with a 4.31 ERA this year.

Plus, we only owe Ortiz the pro-rated minimum. He costs nothing, and his best years were under Mazzone.

No risk, high reawrd.

[RShack]

What has Ortiz shown the last 18 months to make you or the Orioles think he can be trusted?

Nothing.

The thing about Ortiz that makes you wonder if he can be trusted is how he did during his whole career *before* the last 18 months.

The last 18 months is exactly why he could be had for zilch.

Nothing is wrong with it but we are not getting enough out of it.

But we don't know that, it's just speculation.

They might have a deal that we don't know about... or they might not.

The point is that we don't know.

So, while it's fine to speculate, it's not right to *conclude* that we know things that we simply don't know, that's all...

[EC_oriole]

and his best years were under Mazzone.

He won 21 games in Atlanta once, but his pitching in Atlanta was average for him, he just got better run support. He pitched better in San Fransisco.

[RShack]

If there was going to be a type of silent agreement, which it seems you are trying to imply, why would it not be a written agreement? What do the O's have to lose, other than maybe like a 10k buyout?

I'm not trying to imply that they have some agreement about the O's having options. I just wonder about it, that's all. Everybody else gets to wonder stuff, and I claim that I can wonder stuff too ;-)

I think the only thing we know is that (a) we're paying him the MIN for this year, and (b) we don't know if there is any understanding beyond that.