Adam Jones, race and misrepresentations...

[notfast]

Rshak/MSK -- Just curious, what are your ages?

[enchiridion]

But did anyone look at the ridiculous questions he got on his live chat?

"Are you in a gang?"

What? Are you taking that from my post? I was being satirical. No one, to my knowledge, actually asked him those questions during the live chat.

I was just lampooning the fretful posts people make about his use of slang.

[MemorialStadKid]

Rshak/MSK -- Just curious, what are your ages?

I am 36 years old.

MSK

[Scrat1]

I don't think this is so easy as that, actually. Though it's hard to say whether folks are quicker to criticize because of race, or quicker to latch onto things associated with a player's "otherness" when they feel compelled to criticize.

Wait, you're using the guy that numerous posters wanted the Orioles to release just over a year ago to support your argument?

As a fervent Felix Pie supporter, I haven't forgotten the litany of posts questioning his intelligence, work habits, etc. when he got off to a slow start in 2009.

Because he hasn't screwed up lately. People were dissing the guy like crazy before he even showed up, when it was a team issue re: the visa. When he struggled at first, some folks here were not just disappointed, they were mad at the guy. To pretend there's not less patience about positive opinions swapping to harsh opinions for black guys than for suburban-seeming white guys is IMO naive. But, like I said before, I don't think it's hate-based evil-ness about race, I think it's accidental racial stuff that does not match how somebody intends to be.

I suppose I should clarify. Without a doubt, people are unconsciously more critical of individuals different than themselves. Unfortunately, we've evolved that way. I certainly wouldn't argue otherwise.

However, I do not think this is what's happening with Jones right now. If he were struggling at the plate, but producing in the field (or vice versa), people wouldn't be nearly so pissed, because it's easier to imagine one aspect of his game coming around if another is already there. This is one of the reasons the Wieters/Jones analogy doesn't hold up. Wieters' game behind the plate, while probably not spectacular, certainly isn't making us grind our teeth. (Plus, Wieters didn't win a gold glove, or play in an all-star game. He's also a year behind; if Wieters is playing like this this time next year, the furor will ignite, whether his skin is white, black, or purple w/ butt-cheek antlers.) With Jones it's the disparity between the hype/accolades and the actuality of what we're seeing on the field, which is not very impressive. Announcers still sometimes call Jones a 5-tool player, though I'd be shocked if he ever stole more than 10 bags in a season, but what I want to see is progress in just about any aspect of his game. He's showing us very little.

The other reason (and this is probably the big one for me) people are so frustrated with Jones is the preferential treatment he was getting from Trembley. We had players earlier this season (Reimold and especially Pie) that weren't getting at-bats because Jones was getting the lion's share of playing time despite a complete lack of production. This ended up not being an issue due to a hurricane of injuries, but at the time it was very frustrating. We had an instance where a player who was not producing (Jones) was taking playing time from a player who was (Pie), due to what seemed like nothing more than tenure. He was Trembley's boy, while Pie was not. Now it's certainly not fair to hold Trembley's poor roster management against Jones, but frustration isn't always rational, and I'm sure some of the collective resentment stems from the Jones vs. Pie saga that went on, and to a lesser extent still goes on, around here.

Then of course are all the little things such as tweeting, blowing bubble gum, pies in the face, etc. that just exacerbate his lack of production. Of course, all of these things are ultimately irrelevant, but they affect people's perceptions. If his race is a part of this, I think it's to such a small degree as to be almost inconsequential.

If we're playing the racial subtext game, the one who seemed to me to be most unfairly characterized was Andino, who was accused of being cocky almost every other day, despite carrying himself very similarly to Roberts.

[Beltwayman]

I am 36 years old.

MSK

What is your oppinion of black-Americans who presume I'm predjudice because I am white?

[MemorialStadKid]

What is your oppinion of black-Americans who presume I'm predjudice because I am white?

I don't know how to answer this question because you're assuming that I'm black and that I can speak for other people.

I will say this much, there is bigotry on all sides of the fence. Some of it is based on a series of bad situations out of our control (i.e. someone's mom being robbed by a black guy, or a black kid being harassed in a white neighborhood for no reason) and people carry these memories and feelings inside of them for the rest of their lives.

There are some black people that walk around assuming that all whites are racist just because they are white just as there are whites that walk around assuming that all blacks are criminals just because they are black.

Both might be able to offer statistics to prove their point, but it doesn't make either side right to judge an INDIVIDUAL based on the perceived behavior of a group.

I can't really answer your question because I don't know where you live, how you live, what your experiences have been like with blacks and whether or not you have done things to make people believe you hold prejudicial feelings.

MSK

[Beltwayman]

I don't know how to answer this question because you're assuming that I'm black and that I can speak for other people.

I will say this much, there is bigotry on all sides of the fence. Some of it is based on a series of bad situations out of our control (i.e. someone's mom being robbed by a black guy, or a black kid being harassed in a white neighborhood for no reason) and people carry these memories and feelings inside of them for the rest of their lives.

There are some black people that walk around assuming that all whites are racist just because they are white just as there are whites that walk around assuming that all blacks are criminals just because they are black.

Both might be able to offer statistics to prove their point, but it doesn't make either side right to judge an INDIVIDUAL based on the perceived behavior of a group.

I can't really answer your question because I don't know where you live, how you live, what your experiences have been like with blacks and whether or not you have done things to make people believe you hold prejudicial feelings.

MSK

But you did answer my question. I agree with your answer.

[blid]

Wait, you're using the guy that numerous posters wanted the Orioles to release just over a year ago to support your argument?

As a fervent Felix Pie supporter, I haven't forgotten the litany of posts questioning his intelligence, work habits, etc. when he got off to a slow start in 2009.

Yeah, people insulted Pie's intelligence all the time. People call Jones too flashy. People couldn't stand Andino's crooked hat.

[Gurgi]

Yeah, people insulted Pie's intelligence all the time. People call Jones too flashy. People couldn't stand Andino's crooked hat.

I question the whole team. I have wondered if lots of the players are IQ shortchanged.

Roberts has always seemed shallow to me. Kinda like a male version of a dumb blond.

[Bruce510]

I am doing this thread as a way to clear up a few things I've said in regards to how people view Adam Jones and his tenure on this team. This is the last time I will address this, but I feel this needs to be said loud and clear.

First, I do have to compliment RShack on an excellent post he made in the Adam Jones live chat thread in regards to unconscious racial bias when criticizing people different than yourself:

The hidden bias research has shown that people sometimes unconsciously place harsher criticism on those perceived different than themselves. I believe it's called the IMPLICIT ASSOCIATION TEST.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18122831/ -- I am at work and don't have time to do all the research but there is a site that this article is referencing that tests a person's biases based on visual stimuli and it has some interesting -- but not at all shocking -- conclusions.

I would be the first and last person in any conversation to admit to my own racial biases and its something I work at every single day of my life. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous and would contribute to the very real problems that exist in the world outside of sports-related message boards.

I will say this, black athletes are often under a more intense microscope than white athletes and this gets proven time and time again even when white athletes commit a similar transgression yet get much easier treatment from the mainstream media. (re: Big Ben in Pittsburg).

This is a looooong and exhaustive article about how the mainstream sports media tends to report black athlete transgressions vs. white athlete transgressions:

http://sportsonmymind.com/2009/09/08/happy-30th-espn-the-wwl-lionizes-black-athletes-just-not-in-the-way-the-headline-suggests/

While I will apologize for the length of this quote, it hits to the core of what I am trying to say here:

There has long been a documented lack of restraint and respect towards black athletes and the quick reporting of supposed transgressions. It is not a stretch to assume that the combination of socially-constructed biases and the long term effects of consistent unbalanced scrutiny by the mainstream sports media toward non-white players would have some kind of influence on how people perceive and evaluate a black player.

I am not at all suggesting that Adam Jones is above reproach. Far from it. The guy makes too many mistakes and needs to work harder at his defense and plate discipline. 'Nuff said.

But did anyone look at the ridiculous questions he got on his live chat?

"Are you in a gang?"

That's insane. Almost as insane as there being threads criticizing the man because he CHEWS BUBBLEGUM! He doesn't chew tobacco, he doesn't act like some street thug, he speaks eloquently and treats fans with respect but somehow he is threat to the traditions of the game because HE CHEWS BUBBLEGUM.

I just found it interesting that so many people criticize him so quickly and especially after the man won an (undeserved?) Gold Glove. I was happy that an Oriole player got some kind of recognition for his work and folks here were -- and still -- say that the man somehow got an award as a gift.

I have suggested and still do that there is a kind of racial component to the Adam Jones harshness at times. Does he deserve criticism? Of course.

Does he deserve the harsh nitpicky criticism? I don't believe so.

And whenever the subject of race pops up, folks immediately jump to the "I have black friends, I like this black player" defense/argument as if though that adequately answers the point of the situation at hand. It doesn't. I have all kinds of friends, but when I find myself making certain assumptions about certain groups of people, my friendships don't come into play because those are external decisions.

Socially-constructed biases that become embedded in our consciousness don't always directly affect our daily decision making processes (like friends, co-workers, places to eat, etc.) but do come into play when issues of empathy and fairness come into mind.

On this subject, another article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100527122141.htm

Bottom line, folks tend to be tribal and less harsh towards people like themselves. I've seen this time and time again in many different arenas. With sports, its all too clear.

Now, I am not suggesting anyone here is a member of the KKK for criticizing Adam Jones. That's silly.

I am saying that I have noted a quick knee-jerk harsh reaction to what the guy does and I have often wondered why that is.

In any case, I hope that some of this makes sense but chances are that someone will read this and misunderstand what my point is.

MSK

I am sure that I will be thrown out of OH soon for offering my opinion, but here goes:

I have expressed this several times over the past few weeks and I feel that it is especially relevant here: There are more important things in this world than arguing over BS such as this!! Whoever brought this up and whoever is arguing this needs to seriously take a step back and look at their life and their priorities.

I am just offering some advice:

Enjoy your life. Life is short.. Go for a walk with your children or spouse..

Do something kind for a total stranger.

Instead of worrying about how some people perceive a certain baseball player, worry about how your family perceives you or worry about the little old lady who lives on your street who has no one to get groceries for her.

I am the biggest O's fan you would ever want to meet and I just hate to see some people worry about meaningless things.

Have a great night.

[TonySoprano]

I'm sick of the cannard that if one is critical of someone of a different race, there *has to be* some underlying, deep-seated , racist implications behind it. It's carelessly and sometimes shamelessly tossed out there and the people painted by that brush are left defenseless.

This leaves otherwise well-meaning people to get overly self-conscious and question their own character. It's gotten to the point where people go out of their way *not to criticize* someone of a different race to avoid any adverse perception.

[carolinaoriole]

I'm sick of the cannard that if one is critical of someone of a different race, there *has to be* some underlying, deep-seated , racist implications behind it. It's carelessly and sometimes shamelessly tossed out there and the people painted by that brush are left defenseless.

This leaves otherwise well-meaning people to get overly self-conscious and question their own character. It's gotten to the point where people go out of their way *not to criticize* someone of a different race to avoid any adverse perception.

Perfect post.

[Lucky Jim]

I'm sick of the cannard that if one is critical of someone of a different race, there *has to be* some underlying, deep-seated , racist implications behind it. It's carelessly and sometimes shamelessly tossed out there and the people painted by that brush are left defenseless.

This leaves otherwise well-meaning people to get overly self-conscious and question their own character. It's gotten to the point where people go out of their way *not to criticize* someone of a different race to avoid any adverse perception.

Perfect post.

I'm pretty sure MSK's post didn't say that there's always a racist component to criticisms of folks of another race.

In fact, I think he used "at times." Which, you know, implies "not all the time."

[MemorialStadKid]

I'm sick of the cannard that if one is critical of someone of a different race, there *has to be* some underlying, deep-seated , racist implications behind it. It's carelessly and sometimes shamelessly tossed out there and the people painted by that brush are left defenseless.

This leaves otherwise well-meaning people to get overly self-conscious and question their own character. It's gotten to the point where people go out of their way *not to criticize* someone of a different race to avoid any adverse perception.

If that is what you believe then God bless you. I haven't seen a world where people are walking on eggshells unless when you ask people to try to have an honest discussion about issues that people agree exist.

It harkens back to the old discussion in the early 90s that people were becoming "politically correct" whenever folks brought up the concept of respecting others in dialogue, a bunch of people came out of nowhere claiming that their first amendment rights were being violated because they were being "forced" to say African-American instead of, say, the N-word.

In any case, if you bothered to actually READ what I wrote instead of giving a knee-jerk reaction to the expectation that someone is "crying" about racism, you would understand my POV.

MSK

[Bruce510]

If that is what you believe then God bless you. I haven't seen a world where people are walking on eggshells unless when you ask people to try to have an honest discussion about issues that people agree exist.

It harkens back to the old discussion in the early 90s that people were becoming "politically correct" whenever folks brought up the concept of respecting others in dialogue, a bunch of people came out of nowhere claiming that their first amendment rights were being violated because they were being "forced" to say African-American instead of, say, the N-word.

In any case, if you bothered to actually READ what I wrote instead of giving a knee-jerk reaction to the expectation that someone is "crying" about racism, you would understand my POV.

MSK

You, my friend, by your own definition are a racist.

Take a walk, clear your head and be happy to be able to enjoy this night.