Adam Jones, race and misrepresentations...

[byrdz]

Yeah, the "are you in a gang?" comment was freakin battiness man! Did that guy escape unscathed? I didn't go back to that thread. Wheeew!:angryfire:

Not too many black players in MLB. I always wonder if it's just been like that or if it's gotten worse of late, either way, it's a little perplexing.

[terpsfanorly]

Great post MSK, a lot of people missed the point and remain oblivious to facts. Note he never said there was racism, he pointed out that it should not be ignored that Adam Jones is African American. And with that whether intention or not, certain things follow.

For those stuck on the "gang" question and whether it was a joke post or not, surely you'd believe that the MASN guy got plenty of negative and some non-baseball criticisms and questions. Reading the thread on the chat, I was waiting for a comment about Adam wearing shades when the video started.

[Beltwayman]

Great post MSK, a lot of people missed the point and remain oblivious to facts. Note he never said there was racism, he pointed out that it should not be ignored that Adam Jones is African American. And with that whether intention or not, certain things follow.

For those stuck on the "gang" question and whether it was a joke post or not, surely you'd believe that the MASN guy got plenty of negative and some non-baseball criticisms and questions. Reading the thread on the chat, I was waiting for a comment about Adam wearing shades when the video started.

Adam should not be eliminated from criticism because he is African American. He deserves no 'special treatment', because like the other players, he is a member of the team. Huff recieved alot of criticism last year from this board because of his lack of production. I don't think anyone is singling Adam out because he is African American; its simply that some on this board expect more from certain players because they believe the team is depending on them more than others to produce. Is that fair? Maybe not--but it has nothing to do with his race. Additionally, there is nothing that iritates fans more than a ball player in a slump and his continued free swinging at balls out of the strike zone.

[Lucky Jim]

Adam should not be eliminated from criticism because he is African American. He deserves no 'special treatment', because like the other players, he is a member of the team. Huff recieved alot of criticism last year from this board because of his lack of production. I don't think anyone is singling Adam out because he is African American; its simply that some on this board expect more from certain players because they believe the team is depending on them more than others to produce. Is that fair? Maybe not--but it has nothing to do with his race. Additionally, there is nothing that iritates fans more than a ball player in a slump and his continued free swinging at balls out of the strike zone.

MSK stated exactly this.

[Lucky Jim]

I'd also like to note that identifying "otherness" should neither be surprising, nor viewed as morally deficient. From an anthropological perspective, identifying that which is not like you meant identifying possible threats, and categorizing the ways one is "not like you" was one of the mechanisms of analyzing and cataloging the level of risk.

The core of what MSK is really saying here (and he applies it to all people, not any single race) - outside of the media double standard stuff, which frankly seems a little underbaked (after all, Roethlesberger has been the subject of repeated excoriating articles, whether they were "slow" to report or not, and Shannon Brown has not) - is that folks should be aware of how quickly they latch onto a kind of criticism, because sometimes it can be an instinctive grab for an easily identified marker (of trust, value, risk, whathaveyou).

The Gladwell reference is interesting. I'm far from a fan (his conclusions are often forced, his topics often second-hand) but I think it touches on the double edge of this subject: frequently, we react quickly, instinctively, to things and that "first thought/best thought" nature works to our advantage, helping us identify opportunity as well as perceived threats, and occasionally actually identifying something deeper than that. But, it's not always accurate, nor is it always the appropriate mode of analysis. There's a great line in Up In The Air, where the main character says

I'm like my mother, I stereotype. It's faster.

Stereotyping is nothing but a heuristic. Often we can recognize when we are stereotyping, but the same can't be said for some of the mechanisms underneath that stereotyping. What we notice. What we identify. What we catalog. What we chew on.

I'm a lawyer now, and folks use that as a means of categorizing me on this board. Before that, however, I was a poet and taught literature at the university level. What a stereotype can't do is reconcile that contradiction. I think MSK would like folks to recognize when they might be focusing on one kind of "otherness" with Jones in an attempt to "understand" (i.e., categorize) him, and realize there may be other sides, too, that would require us to pause before leaping to conclusions.

I think Beltwayman makes a good point, by the way, about defeated expectations for Jones and how they drive a lot of the animus towards him. But as I noted earlier, it's entirely possible that we identify a need to criticize due to those expectations, but rely on identified "otherness" factors simply because we're predisposed to identify that which isn't us as more likely to be wrong. And why wouldn't we? To do otherwise would lead to endless metaphysical self-questioning. There's a serious chicken/egg issue at work.

For those who claim they don't have these issues, that they don't see race, that it never plays a role - consciously or unconsciously - well, you're essentially saying that you've evolved beyond it. So, you know, pat yourself on the back. The rest of us, simple machines that we are, will always suffer from a bounded rationality that we're forced to fight daily.

[DannyO]

Why in the world do you pollute this board with comments centered on race?

Can't you view people as individuals?

[osfan83]

As a long suffering Oriole fan:

Please, Please sign 25 black players that can get us into the playoffs! I'll take that every day of the week and twice on Sunday...I'll even ignore the crooked hats! (the same way I ignored Sherrills stupid flat brim when he was pitching well).

[TonySoprano]

You have a conclusion based on what you believe to be true, as I have mine and if you choose to be narrow-minded then go for it. I'm not here to prove what is real and what isn't. I know what I have seen here and I didn't say that every one was racist or anything close. Obviously, you're not emotionally or mentally equipped enough to have this conversation without resorting to the tired old "crying about racism" remark.

You think Jones has been unfairly criticized at times by this board. Without looking at the obvious factors, oh I don't know, his actual performance measured in numbers the past year, you have to play pseudo-sociologist in order to divine some hidden meaning.

Case in point, there are dozens of people here willing to drive Atkins to the airport if it meant he was leaving town for good. Would you like to conjure up a sociological explanation for that? Is it entirely possible that the criticism of Atkins is performance driven?

Why does there have to be a deeper meaning with Jones, and not Atkins, other than results? Or is that too narrow-minded of a question for you?

Oh no, you didn't say anyone here was racist? However, how do you label feelings that are critical of a person of a different race, only because they are different? You don't call that racism? Why? because it's in our nature, because it's done subconsciously? We can't help it? Besides, the media promulgates it?

Deny the loudest? I thought we're supposed to be living in a post-racial society now, if you believe the media. You continue to look at race, first, as a root cause for whatever causes you to disapprove.

[Orioles18]

Yeah, the "are you in a gang?" comment was freakin battiness man! Did that guy escape unscathed? I didn't go back to that thread. Wheeew!:angryfire:

Not too many black players in MLB. I always wonder if it's just been like that or if it's gotten worse of late, either way, it's a little perplexing.

Read this:

What? Are you taking that from my post? I was being satirical. No one, to my knowledge, actually asked him those questions during the live chat.

I was just lampooning the fretful posts people make about his use of slang.

[Mashed Potatoes]

The criticism of Jones has been fair.

The primary source behind the criticism of Jones has been his performance on the field.

With that said I think MSK is right on that we consciously and sometimes unconsciously have a player's race effect our interpretation of that player. The difficulty you run into with making any such claim is that it's translated into "you're a racist" which makes people defensive. On the other side by admitting that race plays a role in our lives forces us to admit that our success is not wholly a product of our hard work and that other less visible factors gave us an advantage that other people do not have.

I work at a Baltimore City Public School and obviously poverty and culture hamper our students' future, however, it's also clear that people view them and make assumptions about them before they have even met them that are very different from the way I was viewed at that age. Skin color is largely behind the discrepancy.

Has anyone ever noticed that all of the Orioles heart throbs have been white guys? Markakis and Roberts most recently. I cannot remember a time when the O's or their fans played the heart throb angle with one of their black or latino players.

[Mackus]

Has anyone ever noticed that all of the Orioles heart throbs have been white guys? Markakis and Roberts most recently. I cannot remember a time when the O's or their fans played the heart throb angle with one of their black or latino players.

I don't really agree with this. Jones pretty much took over as the face of the franchise last year. He's derailed in terms of progress this year, which is why he's drawing so much criticism. But people loved him last year, I see way more of his jersey than Markakis', for example. Roberts is still #1, but he's been here the longest. Mora was everybody's darling for a while until things went badly.

I think people often confuse "criticizing a player because of his struggles" with "criticizing a player because of his color".

[Boy Howdy]

Yeah, the "are you in a gang?" comment was freakin battiness man! Did that guy escape unscathed? I didn't go back to that thread. Wheeew!:angryfire:

Not too many black players in MLB. I always wonder if it's just been like that or if it's gotten worse of late, either way, it's a little perplexing.

The number of African-American players peaked in the mid-1970's (specifically 1975 IIRC) and has been declining ever since.

There are many theories concerning why this is the case, and you shouldn't have to look too hard to find a lot of that research. I tend to agree with those who doubt a forum like this is the best place to debate this issue, but I do think it's telling that MLB seems to acknowledge its standing within some segments of the African-American community is a problem, even if the league's efforts to repair the breach are often clumsy and/or dubious.

[Bosibus]

This whole entire thread is sad.

I wish the Orioles were winning so we could talk about actual baseball and not cooked up fantasies about why Jones is criticized more than other players because he is black and not because he is one of the worst hitters on our team.

FTO

[osfan83]

The criticism of Jones has been fair.

The primary source behind the criticism of Jones has been his performance on the field.

With that said I think MSK is right on that we consciously and sometimes unconsciously have a player's race effect our interpretation of that player. The difficulty you run into with making any such claim is that it's translated into "you're a racist" which makes people defensive. On the other side by admitting that race plays a role in our lives forces us to admit that our success is not wholly a product of our hard work and that other less visible factors gave us an advantage that other people do not have.

I work at a Baltimore City Public School and obviously poverty and culture hamper our students' future, however, it's also clear that people view them and make assumptions about them before they have even met them that are very different from the way I was viewed at that age. Skin color is largely behind the discrepancy.

Has anyone ever noticed that all of the Orioles heart throbs have been white guys? Markakis and Roberts most recently. I cannot remember a time when the O's or their fans played the heart throb angle with one of their black or latino players.

Back in the day I remember Kenny Singleton being considered a hansome man.

[Lucky Jim]

VaTech and Bosibus's posts in mind, I'm not sure why it's sad, or particularly contentious, to discuss these issues. In fact, I think the intersection of race and professional athletics is fascinating and illuminating. If sports are a microcosmic window onto the society at large, then clearly race, gender, sexuality, and any number of issues are worthy of discussion.

For those who think that this thread shouldn't be allowed on the board, I don't know how to answer. It's one thread, started by a thoughtful, if provocative and somewhat misdirected, first post. Clearly, there's room for a discussion like this amid the "I Hate MacFart" threads, right?