ESPN is reporting...

[Greg Pappas]

We're coming from different perspectives. I believe just about every ball player in the last couple decades was on something, but players like Bonds had special talent that caused them to rise above the rest regardless of juicing. And he still really did actually hit those homeruns (irrespective of what may have aided him. It's not like notorious spitballers, corked bat users, amphetamine and cocaine users are not in the HOF too) for better or for worse. You can't ignore history.

You (and to be fair a large amount of sports fans) believe its just Bonds and a few other "big fish" who were users, and its completely unfair and an affront to the vast majority of players who did it "clean".

My amnesty comment simply means you can either go back parsing records, erasing stats, setting double and triple standards, completely screwing up the history of a record keeping intensive game, or you can say "live and let live" for what happened in the past and become smarter, more stringent and more effective in the future to rid the game of PED, by more random tests, more banned items like masking agents and various harmones, strict doctor and pharmacy supervision, etc.

Ultimately what needs to be done is a universal Olympic like committee that monitors all professional athletes in all the major sports so they must answer to an independent, efficiently run, no nonsense committee with strict, universal penalties, but that will never happen. There's no easy solution.

It's a mistake and a waste of time to try to parse through past records of who did what with the aid of what because it's never going to be totally fair and will do far more to ruin the integrity of the game than letting history stand.

Well put post, although I am not a "Bonds and a few other big fish" guy, I am thinking it's more like 10-15% of the players. Regardless, this issue stirs our passions in a way that none of us enjoy. Good points.

[Greg Pappas]

Are you sure you really view it differently? You refer to the fact that you will always think poorly of them and will scoff at their records. Well, of course you will. Many people will. But that is something that amnesty can't do anything about. Amnesty can't change people's opinions. Amnesty is not an attitude thing, it's a legalistic thing. Amnesty only says, "You're caught, but you're not busted, there is no formal penalty." Which is all they can say anyway for the time-period before MLB banned roids. They can't go back and retroactively make it a hanging offense for the people we're soon gonna hear about. So they can't hang them.

But neither can they force anybody to respect them. Reputations will be ruined. Raffy's about to have a whole lot of company. There will be bad press, and popular ballplayers will be named, and it will a great scandal. The non-sports parts of TV will be all over it. It will be the biggest sports scandal since the Black Sox. It will be bigger. I trust that we all know what the TV people are gonna do with this. Many fans will be broken-hearted. Heroes will be cast out of Eden and sent to the Land of Nod, reputation-wise.

But that's what it's gonna take to get it over with. For the people named, both their good stats and their bad rep will persist. Maybe the guys not-named will be free of it. Better to have the media circus, and the fans' broken hearts, and just get it done with. Until that happens, it won't ever be over, and some of the innocent guys will be tainted by it too. I figure it's best to just get it done and over with. It won't be pretty, but at least it will be over. At least with respect to the 'Roids Era.

There will still be an arms race between the substances and the tests, but the legality issue will be clear. After we get this big media bloodbath done, it will be the end of the era where it was "wrong but not banned". They can't go back and retroactively make it a hanging offense for the people we're gonna hear about, but from now on it will be a hanging offense. Whatever the PED penalties are now, after the upcoming bloodbath, I expect that the penalties will get worse.

Excellent post and one that seems to "lay it out there" for the average guy to understand. You make many good points and I appreciate the way you went about it.

My view on this investigation and the potential fallout sickens me, and only through well thought conversations like we're all having can help to ease the pain of it.

I am not alone.... we all hate this.

[66-70-83-??]

Are you sure you really view it differently? You refer to the fact that you will always think poorly of them and will scoff at their records. Well, of course you will. Many people will. But that is something that amnesty can't do anything about. Amnesty can't change people's opinions. Amnesty is not an attitude thing, it's a legalistic thing. Amnesty only says, "You're caught, but you're not busted, there is no formal penalty." Which is all they can say anyway for the time-period before MLB banned roids. They can't go back and retroactively make it a hanging offense for the people we're soon gonna hear about. So they can't hang them.

But neither can they force anybody to respect them. Reputations will be ruined. Raffy's about to have a whole lot of company. There will be bad press, and popular ballplayers will be named, and it will a great scandal. The non-sports parts of TV will be all over it. It will be the biggest sports scandal since the Black Sox. It will be bigger. I trust that we all know what the TV people are gonna do with this. Many fans will be broken-hearted. Heroes will be cast out of Eden and sent to the Land of Nod, reputation-wise.

But that's what it's gonna take to get it over with. For the people named, both their good stats and their bad rep will persist. Maybe the guys not-named will be free of it. Better to have the media circus, and the fans' broken hearts, and just get it done with. Until that happens, it won't ever be over, and some of the innocent guys will be tainted by it too. I figure it's best to just get it done and over with. It won't be pretty, but at least it will be over. At least with respect to the 'Roids Era.

There will still be an arms race between the substances and the tests, but the legality issue will be clear. After we get this big media bloodbath done, it will be the end of the era where it was "wrong but not banned". They can't go back and retroactively make it a hanging offense for the people we're gonna hear about, but from now on it will be a hanging offense. Whatever the PED penalties are now, after the upcoming bloodbath, I expect that the penalties will get worse.

That is what I have been saying for a few years.

They must turn over every leaf and expose every player, no matter how popular or obsure the player is.

That is the first step in putting this baby to bed.

The next step is to have a strict testing program with a punishment for getting caught that is so severe that only the desparate will even think about using.

Having extreme punishment is necessary because fear is the only real weapon that MLB has over the players who can afford to pay the underground "pharmacists" to concoct the undetectable "designer" drugs that stay ahead of the testing technology.

After the names come out, some of the players can shine if they choose to do so: The players who will gain respect will be the one(s) who finally comes out and says "yeah, I did it. I wanted every edge I could find. There were multi-million dollar contracts at stake".

I am so tired of the ones who have "no idea" how roids could show up in their sample. I am still waiting for Raffy to tell his side of the story.

I personally place the lions share of the blame on the MLBPA. Some say the owners made money off the home runs. So ? Owners always have and always will earn money off the game. They never put a needle in a players butt or a pill in their mouths.

I must say though, that if I was a player, I can't say that I would have resisted the temptation to use the PED's. I understand it, but I also don't like that it has happened.

[mikezpen]

You need to create the same fear among ballplayers that they did for gambling on baseball. Pete Rose is one of the greats of the game and they nailed him to the wall. If nothing else, he's been a great object lesson.

I think the guys under strong suspicion of using w/pay a huge penalty in history if not directly. The first was McGwire, who got 128 of the 409 HOF votes he needed even though he w/have been a shoo-in under normal circumstances.

[srh523]

Personally I dont care who is named and wont be surprised by a single player being named! Really it doesnt change anything for me and I dont think it will for most fans.

I am sick of hearing about it as baseball totally turned a blind eye to it and lets face it steriods most likely saved baseball after the strike when no one gave to cents about baseball.

Now baseball wants to turn around and start judging all those players. I am not saying they should have been juicing but as Chris Rock once said " I understand!"

It's time to start with a clean slate and a new era and move on and stop dragging this out.

[BillySmith]

You know we have to stop the drug cheating because it is a horrible slippery slope.

In China. Yao Mings parents were tall. Not 7'6'" but in the high six foot range. The goverment decided for politcal reasons they wanted to make China good at basketball. The picked a big man and woman and made them mate and have Yao. When he was young they began to give him growth hormone. Until he reached the size that he is today. He is a manufactured human.

If we dont at least make the effort to stop this. Rich parents in countries will do this to their own children. All in the hope of making another Tiger Woods.

Listen. You know the father of the Williams sisters was poor and lived in Los Angelos. He saw on TV one day how much money female atheletes could make playing tennis. So he told his wife they were gonna have two more children. He only wanted girls and he wanted to train them to be tennis stars. What a nut! If he had lived in a time of growth hormone I am sure he would of drugged his kids also.

People are strange out there. We need to slow this down. Before parents start getting the stuff so there kids can play better little league baseball. And they are parents out there that will do it. Belive me.

gurgi, this sounds too bizarre. Where did you get this info about Yao and the Williams sisters?

[Jagwar]

How soon can we trade Tejada???

By the way, I have a feeling that no trades will be made anywhere at least until after the names are released. No team is going to want to trade for a guy who may or may not be on the list

[Mark Carver]

Remember the incident with Penn last year? When he was scheduled to start a game in springtraining and forgot his bag? He then drove all the way back to the headquarters to pick it up instead of telling another player or manager to get it for him. It always made me wonder. Crazy thing to do really unless you really couldnt let anyone see what was in the bag. The Orioles really got steamed over it. Much more angry than I would of expected for a simple mistake. I always figured there was something left unsaid.

I hope and pray for a day when this issue will be over. When I dont suspect every player. But I give no one the benifit of the doubt anymore. You would have to be a fool too now. The fans have been lied to too many times to trust anyone's word. Even to trust anyones urine test. Now I just assume they all could be cheats. If they have break out years like Cust. I just assume he figured a good way to cheat this season.

Sad.... state of affairs.

Wow! Penn is a druggy because he left a bag back the training camp...

[Mark Carver]

gurgi, this sounds too bizarre. Where did you get this info about Yao and the Williams sisters?

From the same source about Penn and his drug use...

[BaltimoreTerp]

From the same source about Penn and his drug use...

It's all in the name, you know...

[davearm]

That is what I have been saying for a few years.

They must turn over every leaf and expose every player, no matter how popular or obsure the player is.

That is the first step in putting this baby to bed.

The next step is to have a strict testing program with a punishment for getting caught that is so severe that only the desparate will even think about using.

Having extreme punishment is necessary because fear is the only real weapon that MLB has over the players who can afford to pay the underground "pharmacists" to concoct the undetectable "designer" drugs that stay ahead of the testing technology.

After the names come out, some of the players can shine if they choose to do so: The players who will gain respect will be the one(s) who finally comes out and says "yeah, I did it. I wanted every edge I could find. There were multi-million dollar contracts at stake".

I am so tired of the ones who have "no idea" how roids could show up in their sample. I am still waiting for Raffy to tell his side of the story.

I personally place the lions share of the blame on the MLBPA. Some say the owners made money off the home runs. So ? Owners always have and always will earn money off the game. They never put a needle in a players butt or a pill in their mouths.

I must say though, that if I was a player, I can't say that I would have resisted the temptation to use the PED's. I understand it, but I also don't like that it has happened.

Well we're in diametric opposition, because for the life of me I still can't grasp what baseball thinks it is trying to accomplish with this Mitchell probe.

No report or investigative probe in the world can clear this mess up entirely. There's always going to be more uncertainty than clarity, more suspicion than proof, and more circumstantial evidence than hard evidence with regard to the who's, the what's, and the when's of PED use that took place years ago.

We're never ever ever, not in a million years going to learn *everybody* who used PEDs.

And those that we can confidently say used PEDs, we'll never ever ever get to the bottom of the what, starting when, for how long, and to what benefit questions.

And even if all of the above was possible, there's still no clear view on what to do with the information if we had it.

It seems to me that baseball is spending a whole heckuva lot of time, energy, and focus on this issue, when they know going in that the information they're going to get back is going to be both imperfect and incomplete.

Far better, IMO, would be for them to put their money and resources into forward-looking initiatives focused on detection, prevention, punishment, etc.

You can't undo the past, so do everything you can to get the PEDs out of today's game, and prevent a reoccurrence of this mess happening in the future.

[66-70-83-??]

Well we're in diametric opposition, because for the life of me I still can't grasp what baseball thinks it is trying to accomplish with this Mitchell probe.

No report or investigative probe in the world can clear this mess up entirely. There's always going to be more uncertainty than clarity, more suspicion than proof, and more circumstantial evidence than hard evidence with regard to the who's, the what's, and the when's of PED use that took place years ago.

We're never ever ever, not in a million years going to learn *everybody* who used PEDs.

And those that we can confidently say used PEDs, we'll never ever ever get to the bottom of the what, starting when, for how long, and to what benefit questions.

And even if all of the above was possible, there's still no clear view on what to do with the information if we had it.

It seems to me that baseball is spending a whole heckuva lot of time, energy, and focus on this issue, when they know going in that the information they're going to get back is going to be both imperfect and incomplete.

Far better, IMO, would be for them to put their money and resources into forward-looking initiatives focused on detection, prevention, punishment, etc.

You can't undo the past, so do everything you can to get the PEDs out of today's game, and prevent a reoccurrence of this mess happening in the future.

Of course, nothing will clear this up completely. Although, the closest thing to that would be a total reversal of Don Fehr and his boys refusal to cooperate. The players are the ones who can easily do the most in clearing this up by coming clean. But, that is very unlikely.

They (MLB) have to do something.

There has to be some sort of "closure" so that the game can move forward without this scandal hanging over their head forever. This investigation is their shot at doing just that. At least MLB can say "we tried" to get to the bottom of it.

[srh523]

Of course, nothing will clear this up completely. Although, the closest thing to that would be a total reversal of Don Fehr and his boys refusal to cooperate. The players are the ones who can easily do the most in clearing this up by coming clean. But, that is very unlikely.

They (MLB) have to do something.

There has to be some sort of "closure" so that the game can move forward without this scandal hanging over their head forever. This investigation is their shot at doing just that. At least MLB can say "we tried" to get to the bottom of it.

I dont think there needs to be closure atleast not with the fans. What they need to do is put the measures in place to do their best to ensure it doesnt happen again and move onto the next era and try to leave this one in the dust. I dont think most fans would have any problem with that. Just like anything this is purely driven by the media.

[Mark Carver]

Of course, nothing will clear this up completely. Although, the closest thing to that would be a total reversal of Don Fehr and his boys refusal to cooperate. The players are the ones who can easily do the most in clearing this up by coming clean. But, that is very unlikely.

They (MLB) have to do something.

There has to be some sort of "closure" so that the game can move forward without this scandal hanging over their head forever. This investigation is their shot at doing just that. At least MLB can say "we tried" to get to the bottom of it.

I want to know how someone is suppose to get to the bottom of 'it', when they don't have subpoena powers. Sounds like some names will be mentioned, but they'll have never have gotten to the bottom of it.

From MLB

Yankees first baseman Jason Giambi, who was threatened with suspension for his reported use of steroids, is the only known active player to have spoken with Mitchell, and that was under strict guidelines devised between Giambi, his agent, attorney, MLB and the Players Association.

Four players have been recently named in an Albany, N.Y., investigation into the sale of performance-enhancing drugs via a pharmacy doing business via the Internet: the Cardinals' Rick Ankiel, the Orioles' Jay Gibbons, the Mets' Scott Schoeneweis and the Blue Jays' Troy Glaus.

Glaus met with MLB officials about the matter last month, following the lead of Ankiel and Gibbons.

Gary Matthews Jr. of the Angels also was named back in February in the sting.

None of those players, though, have been known to have met with Mitchell's committee.

[RagsTooRiches]

the ironic thing with all this coming down is Jose Canseco was right, watch and see if alot of names aren't "Huge name players"......