TT: The Orioles are in a freefall, is there a way out?

[Moose Milligan]

My fear is that if we wait 2 weeks to find out where we are before we trade, it will be too late. I think that adding a Grienke and Headley, who would help in both the short and long terms (if you re-sign Grienke) would make a huge difference to this team. But, if we fall under .500, they'll have an excuse to do nothing. We'll go into the off-season with the same 3B and starting pitching situations (Arrieta and Matusz continuing to be huge questionmarks two years after they should be established starters - neither is particularly young anymore). Add 1B and LF to the black holes in our defensive/hitting issues and it becomes a much harder off season than it needs to be. If it weren't for the stellar performance by the bullpen most of the first half, this team would already be 5 games under.

Grienke would only get a start every few days and Headley is a nice player but he's not a game changer.

No, there's no way to salvage this season. And honestly, there shouldn't be any hope for 2013. The Cavalry is still a mess and as long as the starting pitching is poor, we'll still be a bad team.

The first half to 2012 was nice and it showed as a glimpse of what could be...but there's still a long way to go to get there.

[BarclaySouthway]

When Hammel walked off the mound last night we went from possible buyers at the deadline to sellers. I think everybody felt it. It was the worst possible outcome for a team trying to start the second half off strong and prevent another 2005, but it looks like that's what's coming. It definitely felt like more than one loss.

I'm not sure what they have to sell, but giving up youth for a short term fix is off the table. Corral anyone who can help next year and beyond, and get what you can get for your humble spare parts. See what you have with Flaherty, and give some deserving minor leaguers a taste of the big leagues. Ayala, Lindstrom, and O'Day have all had great seasons. They might fetch something, especially if they pitch well over the next 2 weeks. But there shouldn't be but a handful of players who are off the table.

I'm very disappointed, but I'm still hopeful that the Os stay respectable. The playoffs, it turns out, are an unreachable goal, as everyone suspected. I just can't believe it only took one game out of the gate for this to become certain. As of today, I'm in "next year" mode. Keep the core together, make a few good little deals at the deadline, do something in free agency in the off-season, and maybe we'll look back at next six months as the time the Orioles' fortunes finally changed for the better. As a fan, what else can I realistically hope for?

[Flash- bd]

And honestly, there shouldn't be any hope for 2013. The Cavalry is still a mess and as long as the starting pitching is poor, we'll still be a bad team.

This is an example of taking pessimism too far. We could easily come out of this season having found we have 4 consistent starters we didn't have before (Hammel, Chen, Tillman, Gonzalez/Britton...even Matusz and Arrieta could come back and prove they are to be counted on long-term).

If anything, this has been a valuable year in sorting out our starting rotation and finding out who sinks and who swims.

There's no reason to rule out next year. And if I were to rule out next year, I wouldn't do it on the basis of pitching. It'll be harder to fill some of the holes we have on offense (such as true MOO bat) than it will to fill our holes in the starting 5.

[Moose Milligan]

This is an example of taking pessimism too far. We could easily come out of this season having found we have 4 consistent starters we didn't have before (Hammel, Chen, Tillman, Gonzalez/Britton...even Matusz and Arrieta could come back and prove they are to be counted on long-term).

If anything, this has been a valuable year in sorting out our starting rotation and finding out who sinks and who swims.

There's no reason to rule out next year. And if I were to rule out next year, I wouldn't do it on the basis of pitching. It'll be harder to fill some of the holes we have on offense (such as true MOO bat) than it will to fill our holes in the starting 5.

Yup, sure could. Would you want to bet on the prospects of that? By my count we've got Hammel who just went down with an injury and Chen. Would you gamble on any of The Cavalry coming back strong for the final part of 2012?

Sorry, wouldn't want to take pessimism too far.

[Lucky Jim]

Yup, sure could. Would you want to bet on the prospects of that? By my count we've got Hammel who just went down with an injury and Chen. Would you gamble on any of The Cavalry coming back strong for the final part of 2012?

Sorry, wouldn't want to take pessimism too far.

Seriously. Folks should back off. Moose is the David Blaine of pessimism.

[Flash- bd]

Yup, sure could. Would you want to bet on the prospects of that? By my count we've got Hammel who just went down with an injury and Chen. Would you gamble on any of The Cavalry coming back strong for the final part of 2012?

Well, yes. I would actually bet a good deal that Chris Tillman becomes a quality starter. I would also put the odds at at about 60% that we get a quality starter out of Gonzalez, Britton, Matusz, and Arrieta. So I actually think there's a very good chance we come out of this year reasonably sure about 4 of our 5 starters.

That is, if DD doesn't trade one or two of them first.

[El Gordo]

I am certain that if Hammel is out for the year, we won't be in contention. How anyone couldn't be is mind boggling to me.

Perhaps you have a mind that is easily boggled?

[Moose Milligan]

Seriously. Folks should back off. Moose is the David Blaine of pessimism.

I dunno what's wrong with being pessimistic. From where I sit, I call it realism. I just point out that we haven't had a winning season in over a decade. One of the reasons for that is bad starting pitching, a factor that hasn't changed this year.

I don't see it magically changing by this time next year unless drastic overhauls are made. I don't have faith that any of our young pitchers are going to make a drastic turnaround, and why should I? bd0493 says that we can easily come out of this season with 4 starting pitchers that could contribute next season and I'd like to understand how that could easily happen when nothing has been easy for 14 years except losing.

[jabba72]

This is an example of taking pessimism too far. We could easily come out of this season having found we have 4 consistent starters we didn't have before (Hammel, Chen, Tillman, Gonzalez/Britton...even Matusz and Arrieta could come back and prove they are to be counted on long-term).

If anything, this has been a valuable year in sorting out our starting rotation and finding out who sinks and who swims.

There's no reason to rule out next year. And if I were to rule out next year, I wouldn't do it on the basis of pitching. It'll be harder to fill some of the holes we have on offense (such as true MOO bat) than it will to fill our holes in the starting 5.

If anything its shown us alot of sinking. The cavalry has failed. Again. Maybe Tillman has found something, we dont know since it was only Seattle, but i wont plan going into next season thinking he's anything more than a #4. If that. Matusz dominated a start after tweaking his delivery, but im kind of wondering why he never tried that on the Major League team, where starts matter. Chen and Hammel are solid for half the year up to now. Still have no way of knowing how they'll finish the year. The infield besides SS, needs completely overhauled, including 1B. Because Davis refuses to ever walk. We have a good bullpen though.

[Moose Milligan]

Well, yes. I would actually bet a good deal that Chris Tillman becomes a quality starter. I would also put the odds at at about 60% that we get a quality starter out of Gonzalez, Britton, Matusz, and Arrieta. So I actually think there's a very good chance we come out of this year reasonably sure about 4 of our 5 starters.

That is, if DD doesn't trade one or two of them first.

Alright, I'll bet you a 6 pack of your favorite beer that Tillman doesn't become a quality starter. We need to define what a quality starter is, first.

[Lucky Jim]

I dunno what's wrong with being pessimistic. From where I sit, I call it realism. I just point out that we haven't had a winning season in over a decade. One of the reasons for that is bad starting pitching, a factor that hasn't changed this year.

I don't see it magically changing by this time next year unless drastic overhauls are made. I don't have faith that any of our young pitchers are going to make a drastic turnaround, and why should I? bd0493 says that we can easily come out of this season with 4 starting pitchers that could contribute next season and I'd like to understand how that could easily happen when nothing has been easy for 14 years except losing.

I was just joking about not "going too far."

You're entitled to be whatever you like. That said, pessimists always think they're realists.

[Malike]

I was just joking about not "going too far."

You're entitled to be whatever you like. That said, pessimists always think they're realists.

Optimists, always think realists are pessimists.

[Lucky Jim]

Optimists, always think realists are pessimists.

And actual realists can identify both.

[Can_of_corn]

Alright, I'll bet you a 6 pack of your favorite beer that Tillman doesn't become a quality starter. We need to define what a quality starter is, first.

110 ERA+? For comparisons sake Guthrie was at 107 his time in Baltimore.

[Malike]

And actual realists can identify both.

So can Creationists!