Four reason why Schoop didn't lose the game!

[Dipper9]

I will say there is a tendency at times (and this thread is a good example) for a cross-section of folks to talk baseball basics (let's call it high school and below taught) and incorrectly apply it to MLB analysis in a definitive manner. A lot of what you learn carries through to upper-level ball. A lot changes, sometimes significantly, as the capabilities of the players and the speed of the game ramp up.

This is a great point and is probably what most of us are missing. Playing competitive ball up until college, its pretty standard for most outfielders to hit the cutoff man, as most players at those levels don't have the gun to make it to home on the fly and accurate. Major Leaguers do. So yes, I'm sure this is where a lot of the argument is coming into play.

My two counter-points to that are this.

1. Lough said himself that he was throwing it to the cutoff man. Now, he may be making an excuse, but that's what he said, so.

2. My main point is regardless of everything that went down, the ball was still thrown at Schoop's head, and knowing he was out of position, which he admitted, he had to have know the ball was thus offline. So he could have caught it and saved all the commotion that followed his "olaying" the ball.

OKay, a late minute 3rd point. Announcers always talk about outfielders missing the cutoff man and allowing the runners on base to move up. So maybe...maybe...some of those "basic baseball learnings" do actually still apply to the Majors? (And yes, I realize this doesn't matter in our case because the game was on the line and the only runner that mattered was on 3rd base.)

[Stotle]

OKay, a late minute 3rd point. Announcers always talk about outfielders missing the cutoff man and allowing the runners on base to move up. So maybe...maybe...some of those "basic baseball learnings" do actually still apply to the Majors? (And yes, I realize this doesn't matter in our case because the game was on the line and the only runner that mattered was on 3rd base.)

You can guess what I think about this, or read the post you quoted.

A lot of what you learn carries through to upper-level ball.

[MrOrange82]

I don't think you need high level playing experience to talk about this stuff at all (in case my point gets misconstrued). But we should all examine ourselves if our views become dogmatic based on imperfect comparative experiences.

"mperfect comparative experiences" made me chuckle. If the baseball thing doesn't work out, you should give politics a try, Stotle (or should I say, "Mr. World's Most Beloved Dictator, 2024").

[Redskins Rick]

"mperfect comparative experiences" made me chuckle. If the baseball thing doesn't work out, you should give politics a try, Stotle (or should I say, "Mr. World's Most Beloved Dictator, 2024").

Baseball needs a new Commish!

[Tony-OH]

I will say there is a tendency at times (and this thread is a good example) for a cross-section of folks to talk baseball basics (let's call it high school and below taught) and incorrectly apply it to MLB analysis in a definitive manner. A lot of what you learn carries through to upper-level ball. A lot changes, sometimes significantly, as the capabilities of the players and the speed of the game ramp up.

This is a great point. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there seems to be a certain group of posters in this thread that may not understand that pro ball is played a bit differently, especially in situations like this. Saying that, even in high school, if I make that play, my throw is going through to home and if the cutoff guy is not in the right place it just means I better line my throw up pretty well.

I played a lot of outfield in high school, through semi-pro, all-military travel teams and in adult baseball. I've coached high school and I've scouted thousands of games at every level from high school to the major leagues. In my opinion, in this situation where the only runner that matters is tagging up at third, the only throw the outfielder should be making is through to home.

I truly think Lough either got confused in the moment or just made a terrible throw. Either way, it happens sometimes. Schoop could have been in a better position to line up the throw and perhaps the perfect situation Lough throws it on a line and Wieters is able to see Pedroia stop in time to tell Schoop to cut.

But the reality is that Pedroia took off for home on his first break. I think Schoop saw that and thought he could double him up. Once he realized Pedroia was coming back to tag, he started to go out to his cut position but was late due to the speed of the play. Lough has the entire play in front if him. Once he makes the catch he knows his main job is to not let the runner score. The best way to do that is to throw through to the plate regardless of whether the cut off man is in the right postiion or not. you do not fire to the cut off man if he's out of position. Lord knows I've had my share of cut off men out of postion and not once did I ever throw to them when I had enough arm strength to successfully make a throw to the base/plate I was throwing to.

[TonySoprano]

Help me out here. Lough said he intended for the throw to be cut off and Schoop said he should have done so as well Are both MLB players, who seem to be on the same page about the play, wrong?

[Ruzious]

Just going by my version of common sense, you can say you're throwing to the cutoff man, but that only means you throw it low enough for the cutoff man to catch it. You always make that throw in those circumstances toward home plate. You do not aim it toward a cutoff man.

[Tony-OH]

Help me out here. Lough said he intended for the throw to be cut off and Schoop said he should have done so as well Are both MLB players, who seem to be on the same page about the play, wrong?

If Wieters yelled "cut" and Schoop did not then he should have cut the ball. If Schoop was aware that the throw was way off mark then he should have cut the ball. If Lough was worried about hitting a cutoff man who was in the wrong position in that situation, then he was wrong, pure and simple. Just because the guy plays major league baseball does not mean he was right. It sounds like he was justifying his poor throw.

[SerenityNow]

My confusion on the play is not who is primarily to blame (who I feel is Lough) but on why people are saying there is no way Schoop should have caught the ball. Watching the replay again the throw is so far offline I feel like he should have instinctively caught it. If you are in the camp that doesn't think he should have caught what if the throw was another 20 feet offline because it slipped out of Loughs hand, would it be acceptable to catch the ball then? I know this is an extreme exaggeration but there are scenarios where baseball instincts trump baseball fundamentals.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Help me out here. Lough said he intended for the throw to be cut off and Schoop said he should have done so as well Are both MLB players, who seem to be on the same page about the play, wrong?

Just my amateur opinion here, but in that situation Lough should not be throwing with the "intent" that a ball should be cut off. We have a semantics issue here with Lough's statement imo. Either it was a bad throw to home that he thinks should have been cutoff or he was throwing intentionally to the IF in a hurried manner for some reason. I think it was the latter, but I also think that both parties were confused.

[Stotle]

Just my amateur opinion here, but in that situation Lough should not be throwing with the "intent" that a ball should be cut off. We have a semantics issue here with Lough's statement imo. Either it was a bad throw to home that he thinks should have been cutoff or he was throwing intentionally to the IF in a hurried manner for some reason. I think it was the latter, but I also think that both parties were confused.

I think this is spot on. Lough's odd choice turned into a big issue because Schoop wasn't sure what he wanted to do/was supposed to do. I'd love to know exactly what went through Wieters's head when that unfolded in front of him.

[Tony-OH]

My confusion on the play is not who is primarily to blame (who I feel is Lough) but on why people are saying there is no way Schoop should have caught the ball. Watching the replay again the throw is so far offline I feel like he should have instinctively caught it. If you are in the camp that doesn't think he should have caught what if the throw was another 20 feet offline because it slipped out of Loughs hand, would it be acceptable to catch the ball then? I know this is an extreme exaggeration but there are scenarios where baseball instincts trump baseball fundamentals.

What if Schoop was not really sure where he was on the field and how far off the throw was? You are right, if Schoop had made the assessment that the throw was horribly offline, then he should have cut it. I just think due to the situation he just wasn't sure where he really was and that case, without hearing cut, he let it go.

[Dipper9]

My confusion on the play is not who is primarily to blame (who I feel is Lough) but on why people are saying there is no way Schoop should have caught the ball. Watching the replay again the throw is so far offline I feel like he should have instinctively caught it. If you are in the camp that doesn't think he should have caught what if the throw was another 20 feet offline because it slipped out of Loughs hand, would it be acceptable to catch the ball then? I know this is an extreme exaggeration but there are scenarios where baseball instincts trump baseball fundamentals.

This is what I've been trying to say. Thanks for saying it more clearly than I apparently did.

[Dipper9]

What if Schoop was not really sure where he was on the field and how far off the throw was? You are right, if Schoop had made the assessment that the throw was horribly offline, then he should have cut it. I just think due to the situation he just wasn't sure where he really was and that case, without hearing cut, he let it go.

I guess my question/comment to this is, why was Schoop so confused? If Adam Jones plays shallow and a ball is smoked over his head, we often criticize him for his positioning on the play. We do this routinely in our discussions about baseball on here. But when discussing this play, there is a group that has been saying because it was such a terrible throw, Schoop should harbor no blame in the play. What I've been saying is, a bunch of stuff went wrong on that play, but had Schoop just realized where he was on the field, he could have saved everything just by catching the ball that was thrown at his head.

[CA-ORIOLE]

This is what I've been trying to say. Thanks for saying it more clearly than I apparently did.

If he (Schoop) thinks it's throw to home (which i'm pretty sure he did) the instinct/training is to not cut the ball unless told.