Four reason why Schoop didn't lose the game!

[Dipper9]

If he (Schoop) thinks it's throw to home (which i'm pretty sure he did) the instinct/training is to not cut the ball unless told.

I get that, and as a lifelong infielder, typically I am ducking just like he did unless I hear cut.

That said, if I'm standing a few feet off the line and I know the ball is offline, I'm grabbing that sucker. Look at Jeter's "Play" from the Oakland playoffs a few years back, where he runs across the diamond to grab the errant throw and make a play at the plate. It was obviously an awful throw, but there are times when an infielder can save an outfielder's arse by making a good play.

So I guess as we talk through this, I am not "blaming" Schoop as much as I'm just wondering how he got himself so confused that he didn't realize how bad the throw was and cut it off?

[Dipper9]

I get that, and as a lifelong infielder, typically I am ducking just like he did unless I hear cut.

That said, if I'm standing a few feet off the line and I know the ball is offline, I'm grabbing that sucker. Look at Jeter's "Play" from the Oakland playoffs a few years back, where he runs across the diamond to grab the errant throw and make a play at the plate. It was obviously an awful throw, but there are times when an infielder can save an outfielder's arse by making a good play.

So I guess as we talk through this, I am not "blaming" Schoop as much as I'm just wondering how he got himself so confused that he didn't realize how bad the throw was and cut it off?

And also, as I said the other day, the way we played that game Sunday night, the next batter would have won it anyway, so this is just for discussion sake. Not sure why some in the thread started getting so worked up? :scratchchinhmm:

[CA-ORIOLE]

I get that, and as a lifelong infielder, typically I am ducking just like he did unless I hear cut.

That said, if I'm standing a few feet off the line and I know the ball is offline, I'm grabbing that sucker. Look at Jeter's "Play" from the Oakland playoffs a few years back, where he runs across the diamond to grab the errant throw and make a play at the plate. It was obviously an awful throw, but there are times when an infielder can save an outfielder's arse by making a good play.

So I guess as we talk through this, I am not "blaming" Schoop as much as I'm just wondering how he got himself so confused that he didn't realize how bad the throw was and cut it off?

He just got confused going back the the bag initially, then to cutoff, losing track of the runner and being out of position. Then the awkward/hard throw by Lough from close proximity that he had a fraction of a second to react to.

He's not supposed to cutoff a throw to home in that scenario IF the runner is going. He probably did not know the runner was not going and he didn't get a cut call. I doubt there was time for Wieters to make a cut call it happened so fast.

Like the article today said, he's learning this on the fly. He has virtually no experience at third base even in the minors. I'm not sure that he even took many reps at third in ST. Yeah, guys Jeter, Brooks and even MM recover from that and have better situational awareness than Schoop did on that play, but they also likely don't get themselves out of position like that in the first place either.

[Tony-OH]

I guess my question/comment to this is, why was Schoop so confused? If Adam Jones plays shallow and a ball is smoked over his head, we often criticize him for his positioning on the play. We do this routinely in our discussions about baseball on here. But when discussing this play, there is a group that has been saying because it was such a terrible throw, Schoop should harbor no blame in the play. What I've been saying is, a bunch of stuff went wrong on that play, but had Schoop just realized where he was on the field, he could have saved everything just by catching the ball that was thrown at his head.

I think this is the key Dip. After watching the play, I'm not convinced he knew exactly where he was on the field. I totally agree that if Schoop knew the ball was that off the mark that he should have cut the throw, but I'm not certain he did know where he was. I think Pedrioia making that first move towards home had Schoop thinking he could head back to 3B to get the DP force out. As soon as Pedrioa went back, Schoop started to move out into position for the cut.

My main point is it should not matter to Lough whether Schoop is in the right spot or not. No outfielder in that situation should be throwing to an out of place cut off man and I think we can all admit Schoop was not lined up with home plate. The wild card in this is I'm not sure if I've heard whether Wieters said anything during this situation.

[Tony-OH]

And also, as I said the other day, the way we played that game Sunday night, the next batter would have won it anyway, so this is just for discussion sake. Not sure why some in the thread started getting so worked up? :scratchchinhmm:

I should take rep points away for quoting yourself.

[BradyBunch]

Ah yes, the "you didn't play in college so you don't know" act. Right. Gotcha. I'll take the high road and keep my comments to myself.

It's not an act, per se. The game changes a bit when you move up in level of play. Different rules between "Little League" and Pony, for example. Then when you start getting to high school it changes some more but it's very subtle. At college level it's a totally different game. For a play like that, it's mandatory for that throw to go home when winning run on 3rd at that level.

It's not a slight against you but your analysis. It's the kind of analysis of a play I would give while playing high school ball when I had the option of hitting a cut off. But even then I'd still say Lough screwed the pooch here. While Schoop did look lost and couldn't decide if he was gonna stay on 3rd or whatever he was doing and I put that to a 2nd baseman playing 3rd, Lough's throw was majorly sub par. Almost Raul Ibanez like.

[Dipper9]

I should take rep points away for quoting yourself.

I know. Not sure what I was thinking. :mwahaha:

[BradyBunch]

This is a great point and is probably what most of us are missing. Playing competitive ball up until college, its pretty standard for most outfielders to hit the cutoff man, as most players at those levels don't have the gun to make it to home on the fly and accurate. Major Leaguers do. So yes, I'm sure this is where a lot of the argument is coming into play.

So are we on the same page? Despite my untactful response to you earlier for which I apologize.

My two counter-points to that are this.

Which are valid.

1. Lough said himself that he was throwing it to the cutoff man. Now, he may be making an excuse, but that's what he said, so.

My problem with is he didn't throw it like he was throwing it to the cut off man. He put every ounce of his momentum into that throw. It was an off balance throw as his momentum was going towards the line.

2. My main point is regardless of everything that went down, the ball was still thrown at Schoop's head, and knowing he was out of position, which he admitted, he had to have know the ball was thus offline. So he could have caught it and saved all the commotion that followed his "olaying" the ball.

Thrown at his head by chance. Schoop moved into the ball by chance. The difference where you and I stand is wording.. Could have implies an option. Should he have? No. That's the difference.

OKay, a late minute 3rd point. Announcers always talk about outfielders missing the cutoff man and allowing the runners on base to move up. So maybe...maybe...some of those "basic baseball learnings" do actually still apply to the Majors? (And yes, I realize this doesn't matter in our case because the game was on the line and the only runner that mattered was on 3rd base.)

Yes, some basics still apply and I absolutely agree as Puig is a prime example. He almost NEVER hits the cut off. But another problem is OF's today don't really have arms. Some do and you know it when you see it. But there are very few.

To give you an example. Back when Brady Anderson played his arm was okay. Never saw his scouting report so maybe Stotle could clear it up. But there was a play in the Top of the 8th against Texas in 1996 (think it was June 20thish) with play similar to this play but runner did continue to home. Ball was hit about 150ft (maybe a bit more) to center. Brady did his crow hop with a bit of a dive forward. It was a good throw and got the out but it wasn't pretty or even smooth. To me at that time.. I laughed at the throw. To me it was weak. At 12 150ftish was nothing, but then again, I had an arm which was a rifle and it was my strongest attribute. So it's all perspective like Stotle said.

[BradyBunch]

I will say there is a tendency at times (and this thread is a good example) for a cross-section of folks to talk baseball basics (let's call it high school and below taught) and incorrectly apply it to MLB analysis in a definitive manner. A lot of what you learn carries through to upper-level ball. A lot changes, sometimes significantly, as the capabilities of the players and the speed of the game ramp up.

Yes, and it comes obvious with these types of plays. I personally don't mean disrespect when I try and point this out. But it's one of the things that irk me.

[eddie83]

I just wish a media member would of directly asked Buck what should Schoop of done if anything on that play.

[BradyBunch]

I just wish a media member would of directly asked Buck what should Schoop of done if anything on that play.

Never will. It could leave Weiters or Lough hanging. You never do that to a player if you are manager/coach.

[El Gordo]

I just wish a media member would of directly asked Buck what should Schoop of done if anything on that play.

I think if you read Dickerson's interview with Roch about it you'll get as close to that answer as possible. He said he didn't tell Schoop what he should have done, he asked Schoop what he thought he should have done. Schoop said he went to cover the bag in case there was a force at 3B and then he wasn't able to get into proper position for the cut off. He said he should have cut the ball off. If Dickerson didn't agree with that he wouldn't have given that info for Roch to print.

[Stotle]

I just wish a media member would of directly asked Buck what should Schoop of done if anything on that play.

Someone asked Buck something:

"His first move is probably back to the bag to think there's going to be a throw there. You have to ask him what's going through his head there. We just made a poor throw. Had nothing to do with Jonathan."

http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2014/04/hearing-from-showalter-schoop-flaherty-and-jimenez.html

[eddie83]

Someone asked Buck something:

http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2014/04/hearing-from-showalter-schoop-flaherty-and-jimenez.html

He also said "I'm not so sure it wasn't cuttable".

[CA-ORIOLE]

He also said "I'm not so sure it wasn't cuttable".

I think everyone understands that Schoop COULD have caught the ball. The scenario is pretty nuanced.