Nick Markakis wins Gold Glove

[DrungoHazewood]

Not saying this is the end all be all, but just because guys go flying around diving all over the field does not, to me, mean they are a better defensive player. Cal rarely dove and he was clearly the best shortstop in the AL. Defense is about more than just being really fast.

I think speed in an outfielder is like height in a basketball player. You'll have 6' 3" guys who're better than 6' 11" guys all the time, but there's only so much you can compensate for. You'll almost never have a 5' 6" guy who's better than a 7-footer. Nick's speed is about 5' 11" and Lorenzo Cain's is about 6' 10".

[Nigel Tufnel]

Cain is pretty clearly better defensively than Adam or Nick, but he only played 93 games in CF and 77 in RF. In the post-Palmeiro world, that's not going to win you a gold glove. And Dyson is pretty clearly better defensively than Cain, but he's a part-time player.

[DrungoHazewood]

Cain is pretty clearly better defensively than Adam or Nick, but he only played 93 games in CF and 77 in RF. In the post-Palmeiro world, that's not going to win you a gold glove. And Dyson is pretty clearly better defensively than Cain, but he's a part-time player.

Weakness in the system when a clearly superior player being used in an optimized way means that he's essentially ineligible to be officially called superior. They need a multi-position GG, or clarify the rule for eligibility. Or just go back to the top three outfielders.

[Il BuonO]

Cain is pretty clearly better defensively than Adam or Nick, but he only played 93 games in CF and 77 in RF. In the post-Palmeiro world, that's not going to win you a gold glove. And Dyson is pretty clearly better defensively than Cain, but he's a part-time player.

What difference does it make if he clearly seen as a better player than Adam? Although, from what I saw, the choices that were available and the metrics Bradley was a better choice than Adam.

Is there specific criteria stating player must have a certain number of games played at a certain position in order to be eligible?

[MurphDogg]

What difference does it make if he clearly seen as a better player than Adam? Although, from what I saw, the choices that were available and the metrics Bradley was a better choice than Adam.

Is there specific criteria stating player must have a certain number of games played at a certain position in order to be eligible?

It is an unfortunate fact that Gold Glove award voting is now biased against players who play more than one outfield position. In general though, it is better than the alternative of not having separate outfield positions for Gold Gloves and the outfield Gold Gloves going to the three best centerfielders in each league as was the case before the change (with the occasional superstar corner outfielder like Ichiro or Yaz snagging a few).

[Il BuonO]

I agree with that, but I think you missed what I was saying. Nigel's post references Cain's games played in CF. I don't think it should disqualify him if he's clearly the better defender, but this he wasn't even a choice.

My question is whether there specific criteria for games played at positions.

[MurphDogg]

I agree with that, but I think you missed what I was saying. Nigel's post references Cain's games played in CF. I don't think it should disqualify him if he's clearly the better defender, but this he wasn't even a choice.

My question is whether there specific criteria for games played at positions.

Not specifically no, but each individual voter probably has his own number. Juan Legares won with 105 games started in centerfield. Perhaps the number is somewhere between 93 and 105. Due to our nation's love of round numbers, my guess is 100 games started is probably your best bet to have a chance, though I wouldn't be surprised if Legares was excluded by some voters because he only started 105 games.

[Number5]

It is an unfortunate fact that Gold Glove award voting is now biased against players who play more than one outfield position. In general though, it is better than the alternative of not having separate outfield positions for Gold Gloves and the outfield Gold Gloves going to the three best centerfielders in each league as was the case before the change (with the occasional superstar corner outfielder like Ichiro or Yaz snagging a few).

To each his own, I guess. I prefer the previous method, giving it to the 3 best defensive outfielders. Thgis will probably result in having some 90% of outfield gold gloves going to center fielders over time, but I don't understand why that would be a problem. Each team almost always has their best fielding outfielder in center.

If a team has a player in center for a few years and he is middle of the pack as a center fielder in his league, is he suddenly a better fielder if the team signs a better center fielder and moves him to right, where he is ranked at the top of the league? I think not.

[Nigel Tufnel]

What difference does it make if he clearly seen as a better player than Adam?

I wasn't saying that he's seen as a better defensive player; I think he clearly IS a better defensive player.

And he wasn't a finalist because he didn't play enough games at any one position, which I guess is an unintended consequence of trying to be more fair to corner outfielders..

[MurphDogg]

To each his own, I guess. I prefer the previous method, giving it to the 3 best defensive outfielders. Thgis will probably result in having some 90% of outfield gold gloves going to center fielders over time, but I don't understand why that would be a problem. Each team almost always has their best fielding outfielder in center.

If a team has a player in center for a few years and he is middle of the pack as a center fielder in his league, is he suddenly a better fielder if the team signs a better center fielder and moves him to right, where he is ranked at the top of the league? I think not.

It devalues the individual positions. Does anyone think that the Gold Glove winner at first base is a better defensive player than the guy who finished second in gold glove voting at shortstop? Of course not. But they don't have four infield gold gloves either.

[Can_of_corn]

Weakness in the system when a clearly superior player being used in an optimized way means that he's essentially ineligible to be officially called superior. They need a multi-position GG, or clarify the rule for eligibility. Or just go back to the top three outfielders.

Fielding Bible added that this year.

Cain won it.

[Frobby]

Weakness in the system when a clearly superior player being used in an optimized way means that he's essentially ineligible to be officially called superior. They need a multi-position GG, or clarify the rule for eligibility. Or just go back to the top three outfielders.

I think that's probably right. I do think it's a bit unusual that so few outfielders got steady time in RF. I haven't gone back to look at past years, but I do not recall the field being that thin previously.

[Loophole]

Not sure why this is being framed purely as a sight vs. stats debate when Nick led full-time AL RFs in UZR. Other guys finished higher but as Frobby said, they're not gonna give the award out to a guy who played half a season. It has more to do with playing time than anything else, but Nick was good this year, and definitely better than he's been in previous years I think. DRS is less kind to him, but it's still something.

Of course, if Yost quit overvaluing Aoki and stuck Dyson in CF and Cain in RF all year, all three KC OFs would deserve to win it. That would possibly be the best defensive outfield ever. Dyson played half a season and managed 3 WAR on defense alone. They were incredible.

[weams]

I wish people would stop talking about Dyson.

He's a 30 year old pinch runner. His career OPS is 657. His career OPS+ is 82. All the guy can do is pinch run or be a late inning defensive replacement. He's abysmal with the bat. And to be quite honest, he's exactly the kind of guy that shouldn't be talking trash. He's on the same level as a David Ross. All talk, nothing else. It takes a pretty big jackass to talk trash from the bench. Which is what he rides most of the time.

He is as valuable as Taylor Teagarden. Period. He is not even really a ball player.

[DrungoHazewood]

It devalues the individual positions. Does anyone think that the Gold Glove winner at first base is a better defensive player than the guy who finished second in gold glove voting at shortstop? Of course not. But they don't have four infield gold gloves either.

Positions and awarding GGs based on them are kind of an artificial construct. The Gold Glove at first is like asking who was the AAA MVP. The best guy who couldn't hack it at a higher level. The guy who got moved down to an easier assignment because his org was really strong at his natural slot.

The way the GGs are now, if the O's played David Lough in RF all year in 2015 he might be the GG winner. But he probably wouldn't be if Adam Jones contracted the plague and Lough had to play center all year. Schoop might be a contender at second, but if Manny wasn't at third Schoop might have ended up there and probably isn't nearly as good a third baseman. LF/RF is where you go if you don't have the range for center, 2B/3B is where you go if you don't have SS range, and the best defensive first baseman of all time probably isn't as valuable as an average shortstop.

There are probably four dozen players in AAA (and many in lower classifications) who are better fielders than some MLB Gold Glovers.

Fielding Bible added that this year.

Cain won it.

Yep, I know.