TT: The Orioles should let Duquette walk

[Going Underground]

I've kind of stayed out of this for a few reasons, but what the hell, here's my take.

I like and respect Dan Duquette as the GM here and I think he's a big part of our success. I like the fact that he's not afraid to go for it and is willing to move minor league prospects for major league ready talent in an attempt to win year in and year out, not just try to play .500 baseball while hoping every prospect pans out. In addition, I agree with those who say he's under contract and the last time I checked Duquette would expect the Orioles to honor their commitments so I think he should honor his commitment. Afterall, no one forced him to sign that extension.

Now, saying all of that, I'm at the point that it might be best for all parties if Angelos relents and allows Duquette to leave as long as the Orioles receive some kind of significant return from the Blue Jays. Now don't get me wrong, I'd be lying if I didn't want to stick it to the Blue Jays for how they've gone about this especially when you consider the timing of them leaking their interest at the start of the winter meetings. That's just underhanded and although Duquette historically has done very little of significance at the winter meetings while at the Orioles helm, we have no idea how that has affected things this winter. Afterall, if I'm a perspective player and I just watched Duquette allow two of his outfielders to walk out the door and there are rumors about him leaving the organization, maybe I think twice.

Despite this, here's why I think it might be best if he's allowed to leave. First, as much as I respect him for his baseball knowledge, he's not irreplaceable. I think back to when he was hired and no one wanted to come here and work for Angelos and how Angelos decided to take a chance on a guy who had been out of organized baseball. That worked out pretty well. Either way, there are quality baseball men in and out of this organization who just need a chance to show they can lead an organization.

Secondly, speaking of leading an organization, let's not pull any punches. Various sources within the organization have told me there are factions within the warehouse that almost goes back to the Joe Jordan - Dave Stockstill wars. From what I understand, you are either a Duquette guy or a Buck guy. That doesn't mean they don't work together necessarily, but let's not act like the organization is full of harmony. In fact, there's a reason leaks from within the organization have been coming out that some within the organization might not be upset to see Duquette go.

Third, as much as Duquette has done a great job with trying to find talent from all sources, he's a bit of a control freak when it comes to hiring new talent into the organization and doesn't allow others to build their staffs as they see fit. In the minors, there is no cohesion of effort between the coordinators and the local affiliate staffs and players are getting conflicting advice from one level to another or even at the same level when a coordinator shows up out of nowhere and starts tinkering.

From what I was told, one of the problems is that certain guys are Duquette guys and have free reign to do what they want. There has also been some concerns expressed about how hard some of those guys work and if they are causing more problems then they are helping. Considering the lack of development within the system the last few years, it's hard to argue this lack of cohesion has not had a negative affect.

Lastly, why do the Orioles want to keep a guy who wants to leave? Sure, you may point out that Duquette has never said he wants to leave publicly, but what GM doesn't come out and immediately squash these rumors if he wasn't interested? Buck has helped instill a team philosophy throughout the organization. He wants players to be attached to the past, the city and the fans, but what does it say when the GM wants to be elsewhere?

So at the end of the day, I'd like to see the Blue Jays have to pay for poaching the Orioles GM, but I also think it's best for all if Angelos allows it to happen. The organization can only be at it's best when all parties are moving forward in the same manner. The Orioles are lucky to have a guy like Buck Showalter who understands the team concept and it's why so many guys are so loyal to Buck and vice versa. The Orioles deserve a GM with the same mentality.

Have you heard anything about Buck not being a big fan of Brady Anderson?If DD does leave and Brady gets more power could this cause an issue?

[SeaBird]

I will always appreciate DD for what he did to turn the franchise around

Andy MacPhail says you're welcome.

[stockpile]

This situation is different. DD would be going to a direct competitor. He is under long term contract. PGA is materially damaged if he leaves today. You allow for that when you say we need to be compensated so I think we are all on the same page. The problem is what do you do if the BJ are not willing to offer adequate compensation? This appears to be the issue to me. Now, you want to give DD the opportunity, but you can't do it and not leave yourself materially worse off.

This is my big gripe as well. Having one of the brightest minds in MLB under contract through 2018 is an asset. Subtracting that asset from your organization and allowing him to go to a competitor is material damage. PA is the controlling owner of what is close to (if not more) than an entity valued at $1 Billion. I would say that DD's contract is pretty valuable, and I would demand a boatload of compensation as well. Throw in the dirty tactics employed by TOR during the process, I would be more encourage to gouge TOR if they really want DD as a punitive measure. Being a successful attorney, I have no doubt that PA is :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: over TOR's tactics, and thus even more motivated to sell as high as possible ot not at all on the rights to DD.

[Tony-OH]

I think your take makes a lot of sense, and I agree with your overall conclusion. I also think you made a good point about not confusing finding AAAA guys who can help us with developing the younger talent. Still, I wouldn't say I am too disappointed with how our players have developed.

I'd certainly see Sisco as more of a positive than a negative. I think the staff has to get some credit for how his hitting progressed; I don't think we were expecting him to lead the Sally League in batting. Overall he is a better prospect today than a year ago.

I will concede you Rodriguez and Ohlman, although if Dan's group gets blame for a year of stagnation don't they also get the credit for the previous two years of development?

Overall, I think among position players Walker and Yaz stand out as guys who have performed better than you would have thought based on their draft status. Davies, Berry, Wilson, Harvey and most of the guys who started last year at Delmarva seem to have progressed nicely. Off the top of my head, besides EdRod's disappointing year only Mike Wright really disappointed me. I was very critical of the way Gausman was yo-yoed back and forth in 2013, but he survived it and made a solid contribution in 2014.

Considering the number of prospects and draft picks Duquette has traded away, and the fact that we have been drafting in the bottom half of the round the last two years, I feel like the system is in decent shape. Not spectacular, but decent.

All good points Frobby, and I didn't mean to say there was no development within the system. I just wanted to pass on some info about the disconnect within the system amongst the development staff at times. People can draw their own conclusions of course but in my mind when you are working with a young player then a "coordinator" comes in and starts tinkiering without a cohesive effort with the staff it can have a negative effect on development.

[Tony-OH]

Good points, but I wanted to point out that Duquette usually does not address or comment on rumors. So why would he change now and try and squash the rumors about himself. He usually lets rumors run their course.

If I was not interested in a job or felt like it would become a distraction (like it has), I would certainly want to address it quickly and distinctly. Duquette has done neither.

[SeaBird]

I'm not quite sure you're trying to say with your first sentence. DD is under no obligation to tell the media anything that would a) prematurely diminish a bargaining position or b) go against the wishes of his employer who may have instructed him to butt out of a situation that someone above him now has to clean up.

If that were the case, what exactly is Angelos holding over Duquette's head if he does open up to the media? Would he fire him? Then Duquette boards the next plane to Toronto.

[Tony-OH]

History is replete with examples of great managers/coaches that overstepped their bounds into GMship and failed. The most successful model in professional sports is a strong GM who hires a strong coach/manager and makes the personnel decisions.

The unwritten but implied sense I get from Tony's post is that he is a Buck guy. Be careful what you wish for Tony. Great managers/coaches often make horrible gms and drive the team into the ground.

Pay DD and promote him. No-one should expect a gm and manager to agree on everything and putting all the decisions with the manager is fools gold.

I respect both Buck and Duquette and I'm on no one's side. I certainly don't understand where you could have gotten that I believe Buck should be the GM. I'm not anti Duquette at all and I love what he's done here. Saying that, if the guy wants to leave then I think it might be best for him to move on. Although I feel Duquette is a professional and will do his best regardless of the circstances, it's always better to have someone in a position who loves it here and who's sole purprose is to make the Orioles better now and in the future. Personally, I think it's hard to do that when you want a postion with a rival and there's still a chance of it happening.

[24fps]

If that were the case, what exactly is Angelos holding over Duquette's head if he does open up to the media? Would he fire him? Then Duquette boards the next plane to Toronto.

If I were under contract to PA for the next four years and on his bad side I would be considerably more worried about not being fired.

[Satyr3206]

After the way the BJ's have handled this, which I think is tampering, with MLB at the very least standing on the sideline saying nothing, here is what it would take for me to approve DD leaving.

The Orioles get any 2 of the BJ's prospects they choose. The MASN situation settled in a manner fair to both sides. By that I mean that they can't tell MASN how much profit they can make.

At this point I think the Orioles deserve a Kings Ransom to let DD leave.

[Enjoy Terror]

Andy MacPhail says you're welcome.

I don't buy that Andy MacPhail was the catalyst for this franchises success.

Did Andy MacPhail make several trades that immeasurably helped this club? Adamantly yes. Did he make a few mistakes. A couple. These aren't unreasonable things to ask of a GM. He set himself apart from Bill Bavasi at the very least.

What Andy MacPhail didn't do was affect a culture change in the organization. From everything I've seen, Flanagan to MacPhail was Sam Perlozzo to Dave Trembley. A dude that every was pleased to see and just happy that someone else was taking over. Remember how everyone loved Dave Trembley? Remember how happy the Orioles were to play for competent manager?

Well Dan Duquette is Trembley's Buck Showalter. Duquette effectuated change. He held people accountable. He managed the minor leagues. Ultimately, Duquette is mastermind of the current Orioles squad. You can point to MacPhail adding pieces like Jones, Tillman, Davis, Koji, etc, but MacPhail never addressed what was truly wrong with this franchise outside of the major league product.

[Frobby]

After the way the BJ's have handled this, which I think is tampering, with MLB at the very least standing on the sideline saying nothing, here is what it would take for me to approve DD leaving.

The Orioles get any 2 of the BJ's prospects they choose. The MASN situation settled in a manner fair to both sides. By that I mean that they can't tell MASN how much profit they can make.

At this point I think the Orioles deserve a Kings Ransom to let DD leave.

I don't think the MASN issue can be mixed with the Duquette issue. The Nats are parties to that contract and they aren't just going to roll over here either.

The way I feel about this is, the Orioles have every legal right to keep Duquette here, it's just a matter of whether that is in their best interests under these circumstances. Tony has given us a lot to chew on. If there was tension between "Dan's guys" and "Buck's guys" before, how do you think it's going to be now?

[24fps]

Uhhh, let's take a timeout there man. You made a VERY exaggerated example in an effort to make a point. You may not have agreed with my initial assertion but please don't try to compare it with marital infidelity. I mean really. It's two completely different things.

The fact you don't know anything about me but still feel like you can make a claim like the one above, is a bit disconcerting. But so be it.

Contracts make sense, but there is a logical ebb and flow to them. As a small business owner I take them very seriously, especially from a moral standpoint, what's right and fair. Most rationale people understand that situations do arise and extenuating circumstances do occur. It's my personal belief that owners/management of any kind shouldn't stand in the way of growth and opportunity of their employees. You can't take away another man's dream or block that because your ego is bruised. That's the idealistic side to my philosophy, the practical side questions just how much I have to gain by fighting this. Where is this relationship headed now? Where is the win for my organization? It's public, it's awkward, the team doesn't really stand to gain by trying to force Duquette to stay. You see this is no win all around!

Now having said that, I think (granted we're talking about a lot of speculation here) Angelos should fight for the best deal he can possibly garner. The Orioles need to profit from this in some respect. If the Blue Jays want Duquette make them pay for it!

I still stick to my earlier point, I really don't have a problem with Duquette if he does have an interest in the job if it has been offered to him. Life changes and I think we need to adapt with the changes that come at hand. What's important is trying to be fair for all the parties involved.

I have never seen a conflict in applying my personal code of ethics to business situations. That's allowed me to build and maintain a clientele over decades and acquire the sort of reputation that made new clients possible. Part of the process has been the necessity (on dozens of occasions over the years) to turn down more attractive opportunities to satisfy existing obligations. That's what "it's just business" means to me. Contract or no contract.

Are you saying that the Orioles organization can't provide Duquette room for growth and opportunity for over the next four years?

The fact that Dan might be dissatisfied with his current position is unfortunate if true but that remains to be seen. For Dan Duquette to use his alleged unhappiness as a lever to get out of a contract would be about the most unprofessional thing he could do under this particular set of circumstances. I hope that's not what's going on, because based on what we currently know, Peter Angelos deserves better. It would be especially unfortunate in light of the fact that DD did not negotiate an out clause for situations like this when he had the opportunity. It's not like this is the first time this issue has come up in major league baseball. If that had been the case then there would be no need to ponder what "logical ebb and flow" might possibly mean in the context of an employment contract vetted by a highly accomplished and skilled attorney.

[VeveJones007]

I don't think the MASN issue can be mixed with the Duquette issue. The Nats are parties to that contract and they aren't just going to roll over here either.

The way I feel about this is, the Orioles have every legal right to keep Duquette here, it's just a matter of whether that is in their best interests under these circumstances. Tony has given us a lot to chew on. If there was tension between "Dan's guys" and "Buck's guys" before, how do you think it's going to be now?

Re: MASN, MLB can't claim impartiality in courts while pushing the O's to relinquish DD. It takes the legs out from under their claim.

[Frobby]

All good points Frobby, and I didn't mean to say there was no development within the system. I just wanted to pass on some info about the disconnect within the system amongst the development staff at times. People can draw their own conclusions of course but in my mind when you are working with a young player then a "coordinator" comes in and starts tinkiering without a cohesive effort with the staff it can have a negative effect on development.

Yes, I find that very concerning. I thought the whole idea of a coordinator was to ensure that players are getting consistent instruction as they move from one level to another. If the coordinator is working at cross purposes with the some or all of the line coaches, that's a problem.

You haven't said so, but I expect we are basically talking about Rick Peterson, who was a Dan hire. I'm pretty sure Jeff Manto was a Brian Graham hire, and the previous hitting coordinator came from Texas and struck me as a Buck guy.

[Satyr3206]

I don't think the MASN issue can be mixed with the Duquette issue. The Nats are parties to that contract and they aren't just going to roll over here either.

The way I feel about this is, the Orioles have every legal right to keep Duquette here, it's just a matter of whether that is in their best interests under these circumstances. Tony has given us a lot to chew on. If there was tension between "Dan's guys" and "Buck's guys" before, how do you think it's going to be now?

I would normally agree the issues couldn't be combined but this is a unique situaton. Ever since Angelos took MLB and the Nats to court it seems like they are trying to stick it to him and the Franchise whenever they can. Specifically with the All Star game and the DD issue. Angelos has aired some of MLB's laundry, the 25 million dollar loan to the Nats, and I doubt if they forget about that anytime soon. Remember the BJ's approached Ken Williams without permission also. And Beeston is known to be anti Manfred. Could be a coincidence but I doubt it.

As for the "Dan's guys" and "Buck guys" I really don't see the issue. I've worked in Corporate environments and Coached baseball. There are conflicts in both. Everyone has an ego and a way they think it should be done. The bottom line is that DD is Buck's boss. I'm sure DD listens to Buck's input but at the end of the day it's DD's call. That's the way a Chain of Command works.