Is Penn still hurt...

[Anonymous]

He has a better chance becoming Matt Riley than he does becoming another John Maine.

Okay, so here's the question for you, bb.

Generally, when you post negative (or should I say highly skeptical?) comments about Penn, I get the feeling that you're relaying the team's view on him. This time, it's clearly coming from you. I'm trying to wrap my brain around this. Without getting into specifics that you're unable to reveal, are the negative feelings mostly yours -- or are they issues on which you and the team's braintrust find yourselves very much in sync?

[Gurgi]

Okay, so here's the question for you, bb.

Generally, when you post negative (or should I say highly skeptical?) comments about Penn, I get the feeling that you're relaying the team's view on him. This time, it's clearly coming from you. I'm trying to wrap my brain around this. Without getting into specifics that you're unable to reveal, are the negative feelings mostly yours -- or are they issues on which you and the team's braintrust find yourselves very much in sync?

Seems most of the dislike of him comes from the spring training game when he raced back to get a personal bag instead of just calling back and saying could someone else bring it up for him. He missed the start of the game. I have always wondered if there was something else to this incident that the club knows and hasnt said. Their not wanting to drop his trade value or anything. I know it is just conjecture but really most of negativity started then. The Orioles really came down on him about this. They started treating him like another Ponson.

[MarkF]

Seems most of the dislike of him comes from the spring training game when he raced back to get a personal bag instead of just calling back and saying could someone else bring it up for him. He missed the start of the game. I have always wondered if there was something else to this incident that the club knows and hasnt said. Their not wanting to drop his trade value or anything. I know it is just conjecture but really most of negativity started then. The Orioles really came down on him about this. They started treating him like another Ponson.

I know this looks like making excuses for him, but I think he is still recovering from surgery to some extent. Having said that, if you look at his last game, there are some reasons to be optimistic despite the fact that the total outing left something to be desired. I didn't see that game. What follows is from the box score and Gameday.

First, he threw seven full innings on 108 pitches. I only checked his previous two games, but he threw over 100 pitches in both of them. It's clear that his strength has at least mostly returned.

On the other hand - he threw only 67 strikes. He had five walks, one intentional (partly - only two of the balls were intentional).

On the other hand - in his seven innings he got 15 ground ball outs and only 5 fly ball outs.

On the other hand - he gave up eight hits, including two home runs.

On the other hand - five of the hits were ground balls. He gave up only one line drive hit (other than the homers).

My point is that he appears to be ready to show us whether he can be the pitcher we all hope he will be. It will take only a bit more control - fewer walks and fewer big hits. ONLY?? Did I say only?

We need patience now to see whether he can get all the way back to being a top prospect. Then, and only then IMO, can we think about whether he stays or we trade him.

[bigbird]

Okay, so here's the question for you, bb.

Generally, when you post negative (or should I say highly skeptical?) comments about Penn, I get the feeling that you're relaying the team's view on him. This time, it's clearly coming from you. I'm trying to wrap my brain around this. Without getting into specifics that you're unable to reveal, are the negative feelings mostly yours -- or are they issues on which you and the team's braintrust find yourselves very much in sync?

One could argue there are 10 pitching prospects ahead of Penn at this time. The fact he's out of options is a key. There is no way we keep him through next spring training then lose him when he doesn't make the team. I feel the front office is looking for better than Hayden Penn and if there was a chance to dwal him for a position player he would be gone the way of the DO DO.

[rolliefingers]

One could argue there are 10 pitching prospects ahead of Penn at this time. The fact he's out of options is a key. There is no way we keep him through next spring training then lose him when he doesn't make the team. I feel the front office is looking for better than Hayden Penn and if there was a chance to dwal him for a position player he would be gone the way of the DO DO.

One could also argue that the farm system has made great strides since Penn was last healthy and productive. That doesn't make Penn any less of a pitcher, it just means he's had some setbacks and guys have passed him on the depth chart in the meantime.

[Anonymous]

One could argue there are 10 pitching prospects ahead of Penn at this time. The fact he's out of options is a key. There is no way we keep him through next spring training then lose him when he doesn't make the team. I feel the front office is looking for better than Hayden Penn and if there was a chance to dwal him for a position player he would be gone the way of the DO DO.

Thanks, bb.

Interesting that you identify his being out of options as a key factor. Here's my Talmudic interpretation of that remark.

I had previously gotten the feeling from your various postings that the front office was so down on Penn that they just want him outta here. But by identifying his being out of options as a key, that says to me that this is a little more nuanced, along the following lines: We don't think he's far enough along in his recovery/rehab/development to get it all together within the next 1/2 year, such that he would have much chance of cracking our 12-man staff. But if we had another full year to wait on him, then it might be a different story.

So it looks like this is a developmental assessment issue more than a POed at an allegedly bad or immature attitude kind of thing.

[Sports Guy]

I am very bullish on Penn rather quickly recovering his prospect status, and believe people are making way to big a deal about the start of his 2008 season.

Have to remember this is a guy that in May 2006 had his appendectomy which caused him to miss several months... he returned towards the tail-end of the year, still showing a weight / strength loss, and was added to the Major League roster when the rosters expanded Sept 1st.

He looked rough over 20IP, but was still going to have a chance to make the roster in 2007.

2007 comes, and he has that bone spur which limited him to 40 Total IP for the year...

I do not have the exact IP totals, but I think you are looking at a guy that had pitched a total of 75IP from May 2006 to the start of the 2008 season... obviously, that would impact your development, and sharpness.

What is most important right now, is seeing him continue to take the ball and rack up IP.

In 2005 as a 20 year old in AA, he had 110.1 IP, with 120k's, 37 walks, and 101 hits allowed.

In 2006 as a 21 year old in AAA, he had 87.2 IP, with 85k's, 27 walks, and 71 hits allowed.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/hayden-penn.shtml

Those are big-time results, and a great illustration of his capabilities, and why we should not be parting with our 23 year old...

I have no doubt that he will produce similar numbers again.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Hayden%20Penn&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=435140

His 2008 numbers are medicore at best, but one thing he is doing is taking the ball every 5th day.

With 53.2 IP this year, he has already exceeded his IP for the 2007 season.

This is a guy that when he was going well, was getting a K per IP, allowing less than a hit per IP, and providing an acceptable walk ratio.

Right now, he has allowed 58 hits in 53.2 IP, with only 30 k's, and 21 walks.

I think he is healthy, I just think you are seeing a lack of feel for pitching.. perfectly reasonable after basically 2 years off.

My guess is that his stuff will tighten up, and the numbers will start to gradually improve.

He really is only a good 5 start run from being inconsideration of a trip to Baltimore.

On the other-hand, you wonder just how many IP he is capable of this year.. and the last thing I want to see is him up with the Major league team later this year with basically a dead/tired arm.

Well said.

Heaven's forbid a guy with very little innings under his belt over 2 years be given some time to get himself back to where he needs to be.

The lack of patience and logic on this site is mind boggling sometimes.

People, do you understand that when these guys get hurt, it takes time to get back?

People want to get rid of Penn, trade him for the hell of it, say he won't amount to anything, etc...

The only intelligent and reasonable argument against Penn is health...And yes, that is a big one but guess what, we have some garbage pitchers in the majors right now and we have had even more garbage over the past number of years.

In other words, there is plenty of room for Hayden Penn in this organization, options or no options.

[mikezpen]

I don't know that the Orioles have all that many pitching prospects. They're dropping like flies due to injuries and ineffectiveness.

[clarence]

I find it hard to believe that we have ten prospects that are actually better than Penn.

I haven't been able to play as much golf the last few years as I had in the past and my game isn't where it used to be. I wonder if missing significant baseball time due to injuries over a two year period could see the same type of outcome?

[ChaosLex]

People want to get rid of Penn, trade him for the hell of it, say he won't amount to anything, etc...

People were saying the same thing about DCab too.

[WhoRU]

They're dropping like flies due to injuries and ineffectiveness.

Really?

Who besides Hoey has a serious injury or has been ineffective enough to question there prospect status?

[Three Run Homer]

Really?

Who besides Hoey has a serious injury or has been ineffective enough to question there prospect status?

Well, Loewen, Spoone and Patton are injured, and one could argue that Liz' stock has also dropped somewhat...Erbe is still a mystery...Beato has still not shown why he was a supplemental first rounder and is now hurt. Spoone is supposed to return soon and hopefully Loewen will be back this summer.

Still, I can't complain about the depth and quality of young pitchers in the organization. The disappointments are more than balanced out by the number of young guys who have taken a major step forward: Cabrera, Olson, Johnson, and Albers at the major league level, and Hernandez, Berken, Bergesen, Tillman, Arietta, and Britton at the minor league level.

[bigbird]

People were saying the same thing about DCab too.

People were saying the same thing about Matt Riley too.

[WhoRU]

Penn has nice start tonight!

6.0IP 7H 0R 1BB 4K

:clap3:

[Old#5fan]

I am very bullish on Penn rather quickly recovering his prospect status, and believe people are making way to big a deal about the start of his 2008 season.

Have to remember this is a guy that in May 2006 had his appendectomy which caused him to miss several months... he returned towards the tail-end of the year, still showing a weight / strength loss, and was added to the Major League roster when the rosters expanded Sept 1st.

He looked rough over 20IP, but was still going to have a chance to make the roster in 2007.

2007 comes, and he has that bone spur which limited him to 40 Total IP for the year...

I do not have the exact IP totals, but I think you are looking at a guy that had pitched a total of 75IP from May 2006 to the start of the 2008 season... obviously, that would impact your development, and sharpness.

What is most important right now, is seeing him continue to take the ball and rack up IP.

In 2005 as a 20 year old in AA, he had 110.1 IP, with 120k's, 37 walks, and 101 hits allowed.

In 2006 as a 21 year old in AAA, he had 87.2 IP, with 85k's, 27 walks, and 71 hits allowed.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/hayden-penn.shtml

Those are big-time results, and a great illustration of his capabilities, and why we should not be parting with our 23 year old...

I have no doubt that he will produce similar numbers again.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Hayden%20Penn&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=435140

His 2008 numbers are medicore at best, but one thing he is doing is taking the ball every 5th day.

With 53.2 IP this year, he has already exceeded his IP for the 2007 season.

This is a guy that when he was going well, was getting a K per IP, allowing less than a hit per IP, and providing an acceptable walk ratio.

Right now, he has allowed 58 hits in 53.2 IP, with only 30 k's, and 21 walks.

I think he is healthy, I just think you are seeing a lack of feel for pitching.. perfectly reasonable after basically 2 years off.

My guess is that his stuff will tighten up, and the numbers will start to gradually improve.

He really is only a good 5 start run from being inconsideration of a trip to Baltimore.

On the other-hand, you wonder just how many IP he is capable of this year.. and the last thing I want to see is him up with the Major league team later this year with basically a dead/tired arm.

Unless he had a ruptured or burst appendix, I find it rather ridiculous that it took him as long as it did to recover from that usually very minor surgery. I was 47 years old and donated a kidney to my father and was back to work in less than two weeks. Either this guy is a wimp or a head case or possibly both. I have little hope for him at this point in time to ever pan out.