Piazza Retires - Best Catcher Ever?

[glorydays]

Mike Piazza hung it up today - officially. His final stats will read:

.308 Avg

427 HRs

1335 RBIs

2127 Hits

.922 OPS

Two questions...

1 - Is Piazza the greatest catcher to ever play the game?

2 - If you were to start a team using players in their prime, is Piazza your starting catcher?

[tennOsfan]

Mike Piazza hung it up today - officially.

Two questions...

1 - Is Piazza the greatest catcher to ever play the game?

2 - If you were to start a team using players in their prime, is Piazza your starting catcher?

No and no.

"Greatest catcher" encompasses more than just being the best hitting catcher. I think anyone with decent baseball judgment would rank Johnny Bench as the answer to Question 2.

[glorydays]

No and no.

"Greatest catcher" encompasses more than just being the best hitting catcher. I think anyone with decent baseball judgment would rank Johnny Bench as the answer to Question 2.

I certainly hope that by asking those questions you are not implying that I lack "decent baseball judgement."

[ChrisP]

Piazza couldn't carry Wieters joc...ahh never mind.:laughlol:

[DREKTUNES]

Though he was a great hitter, didn't Piazza have quite the noodle arm?

[Leitch]

Cringe inducing pun about Johnny Bench being the Benchmark lol get it

Still, Piazza had a ridiculous career. He slugged >.600 4 times. 427 bombs. His career triple slash stats (.308/.377/.545) look like something you'd expect to see in like Hank Aaron's peak.

[clapdiddy]

If he were a bit better defensively, I think he'd be a no-brainer all-time best.

I'd still take Bench over him for all around catching. I'd say Piazza would probably be top 5, though.

[DrungoHazewood]

Piazza is the best hitting catcher of all time. His 1997 was one of the best seasons any catcher ever had.

But once you factor in defense he's pretty clearly behind Bench, and almost certainly Gary Carter. He's probably behind Bill Dickey and Yogi. He's about even with Buck Ewing, Lance Parrish, and Mickey Cochrane.

[McNulty]

Did you say Bench or Bako?

No, seriously, its Johnny Bench no question.

[Frobby]

No and no.

"Greatest catcher" encompasses more than just being the best hitting catcher. I think anyone with decent baseball judgment would rank Johnny Bench as the answer to Question 2.

There's room for debate, but I'd agree that Piazza might have a claim on best OFFENSIVE catcher ever but probably not on the overall award.

In 1742 games behind the plate, Bench allowed 610 SB's and threw out 469 runners. By comparison, Piazza in 1629 games allowed 1400 stolen bases and threw out 423. Bench also made significantly fewer errors (97 to 124) and had fewer passed balls (94 to 102) despite playing in over 100 more games as a catcher. I think it is fair to say that there was no comparison defensively.

[giantfan]

You cant be the best catcher of alltime with below average defense.

[TyCobb]

I would consider Piazza the best catcher of all-time.

Bench:

                G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 162 Game Avg        575   82  154  29  2  29  103   5  3  67  96  .267  .342  .476  126  274   1   7  10   1  15Career High    160  621  108  177  40  4  45  148  13  6 100 108  .309  .379  .587  166  355   3  12  23   4  22

Piazza

                G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 162 Game Avg        586   89  180  29  1  36  113   1  2  64  94  .308  .377  .545  142  319   0   4  12   3  19Career High    152  561  104  201  38  2  40  124   5  4  81  93  .362  .431  .638  185  355   0   7  21   3  27

I would definately take Piazza and hits hitting with his defensive over any catchers career.

[DrungoHazewood]

There's room for debate, but I'd agree that Piazza might have a claim on best OFFENSIVE catcher ever but probably not on the overall award.

In 1742 games behind the plate, Bench allowed 610 SB's and threw out 469 runners. By comparison, Piazza in 1629 games allowed 1400 stolen bases and threw out 423. Bench also made significantly fewer errors (97 to 124) and had fewer passed balls (94 to 102) despite playing in over 100 more games as a catcher. I think it is fair to say that there was no comparison defensively.

I think it's fair to say that Piazza is the Rogers Hornsby of catchers. Hornsby is probably the worst defensive second baseman who was allowed to play second base for a whole, long career. If either of them had been 80% the hitter they probably would have been moved to another position because their offense wouldn't have made up for their defensive shortcomings.

You cant be the best catcher of alltime with below average defense.

Sure you can. If Piazza had hit like Ted Williams or Barry Bonds or Babe Ruth he'd be the best catcher of all time, hands down, even with his terrible defense. Hornsby has an argument for being the best second baseman ever despite below-average defense.

[DrungoHazewood]

I would consider Piazza the best catcher of all-time.

Bench:

                G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 162 Game Avg        575   82  154  29  2  29  103   5  3  67  96  .267  .342  .476  126  274   1   7  10   1  15Career High    160  621  108  177  40  4  45  148  13  6 100 108  .309  .379  .587  166  355   3  12  23   4  22

Piazza

                G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 162 Game Avg        586   89  180  29  1  36  113   1  2  64  94  .308  .377  .545  142  319   0   4  12   3  19Career High    152  561  104  201  38  2  40  124   5  4  81  93  .362  .431  .638  185  355   0   7  21   3  27

I would definately take Piazza and hits hitting with his defensive over any catchers career.

I'm not sure you've fully accounted for the offensive contexts of Bench's and Piazza's careers, nor the value of their defensive abilities.

Bench played in times and places were about 5% fewer runs than the historical average for MLB. Piazza, despite playing mostly in pitcher's parks played in a very high-run era, such that he saw about 5% more runs than the historical average. So while Piazza's numbers are impressive in any era, they'd be superficially less impressive in almost any other time including the one in which Johnny Bench played.

Go check out bb-ref's Neutralize Stats feature. In a neutral context Piazza has a .907 OPS, Bench an .838. Given that Bench is probably the best defensive catcher of all time, at least among those who could hit at all, and Piazza the worst among those with a long career at the position, it's not hard to see defense making up 69 points of OPS.

[66-70-83-??]

No and no.

"Greatest catcher" encompasses more than just being the best hitting catcher. I think anyone with decent baseball judgment would rank Johnny Bench as the answer to Question 2.

Agreed.

Bench comes to mind first too.

In my opinion, defense has to factor into the equation prominently with ranking all-time catchers.

Off the top of my head (I know I will forget some...)

1-Bench

1A-Rodriguez

2-Fisk