Piazza Retires - Best Catcher Ever?

[TyCobb]

I'm not sure you've fully accounted for the offensive contexts of Bench's and Piazza's careers, nor the value of their defensive abilities.

Bench played in times and places were about 5% fewer runs than the historical average for MLB. Piazza, despite playing mostly in pitcher's parks played in a very high-run era, such that he saw about 5% more runs than the historical average. So while Piazza's numbers are impressive in any era, they'd be superficially less impressive in almost any other time including the one in which Johnny Bench played.

Go check out bb-ref's Neutralize Stats feature. In a neutral context Piazza has a .907 OPS, Bench an .838. Given that Bench is probably the best defensive catcher of all time, at least among those who could hit at all, and Piazza the worst among those with a long career at the position, it's not hard to see defense making up 69 points of OPS.

I still take Piazza. Personally I don't put as much weight into defensive from a catcher than most.

[DrungoHazewood]

I still take Piazza. Personally I don't put as much weight into defensive from a catcher than most.

You don't have to. Just a back-of-the-napkin calculation of runs saved on stolen bases and caught puts Bench about 300 runs ahead on defense. That's not giving Bench one run of credit for framing pitches, or calling a good game, or blocking the plate.

On offense Piazza only created about 150 runs more than Bench, without adjusting for context.

So just in a very simple adjustment Bench is 150 runs ahead of Piazza. Once you throw in a more complex model of defense and account for Bench playing in a much more pitcher-friendly place he's way, way ahead. Like 20 or 30 wins ahead.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Piazza is the best hitting catcher of all time. His 1997 was one of the best seasons any catcher ever had.

But once you factor in defense he's pretty clearly behind Bench, and almost certainly Gary Carter. He's probably behind Bill Dickey and Yogi. He's about even with Buck Ewing, Lance Parrish, and Mickey Cochrane.

Roy Campanella.

Bench is easily the best, at least for fifteen more years

[Sports Guy]

Bench had a WARP3 over 20 wins more than Piazza although Bench played 200 more games.

[TyCobb]

You don't have to. Just a back-of-the-napkin calculation of runs saved on stolen bases and caught puts Bench about 300 runs ahead on defense. That's not giving Bench one run of credit for framing pitches, or calling a good game, or blocking the plate.

On offense Piazza only created about 150 runs more than Bench, without adjusting for context.

So just in a very simple adjustment Bench is 150 runs ahead of Piazza. Once you throw in a more complex model of defense and account for Bench playing in a much more pitcher-friendly place he's way, way ahead. Like 20 or 30 wins ahead.

I put the blame for stolen bases like 85% on the pitcher not the catcher.

Also Piazza faced better bullpens.

[DrungoHazewood]

Roy Campanella.

Campanella was great, and played in Baltimore, but he only had about six years where he was an above-average major league catcher. He gets some extra credit because segregation wouldn't allow him in the majors until he was 26, but I don't think that's nearly enough to pass Piazza.

[DrungoHazewood]

I put the blame for stolen bases like 85% on the pitcher not the catcher.

Also Piazza faced better bullpens.

You'd be wrong.

Do you really think it's terribly likely that Bench just happened to catch a group of pitchers who were 1000 miles better at holding runners than Mike Piazza? How do you account for Piazza being traded multiple times to teams with wholly different pitching staffs yet he still allowed vast numbers of steals no matter where he went?

[TyCobb]

You'd be wrong.

Do you really think it's terribly likely that Bench just happened to catch a group of pitchers who were 1000 miles better at holding runners than Mike Piazza? How do you account for Piazza being traded multiple times to teams with wholly different pitching staffs yet he still allowed vast numbers of steals no matter where he went?

I think Bench catched in a era where pitchers worried more about holding runners on.

Next time just say you disagree. Not that I am wrong.

[DrungoHazewood]

I think Bench catched in a era where pitchers worried more about holding runners on.

Next time just say you disagree. Not that I am wrong.

I very sure that Piazza caught in an era where pitchers worried more about holding runners on. When Bench caught many, if not most, pitchers used exaggerated windups that almost look comical on ESPN Classic today. Even from the stretch they had arms and legs flailing everywhere. It was a holdover from the 40s and 50s when 25 steals might lead the league. Today almost everyone has a slide step, and/or a short, compact delivery designed to stop base stealing.

If Piazza caught in the 1960s and 70s he might not have ever thrown anyone out.

I don't believe I'm going to suggest that the idea that the defensive differences between Mike Piazza and Johnny Bench are negligible is up for debate. It's an unreasonable position.

[TyCobb]

I very sure that Piazza caught in an era where pitchers worried more about holding runners on. When Bench caught many, if not most, pitchers used exaggerated windups that almost look comical on ESPN Classic today. Even from the stretch they had arms and legs flailing everywhere. It was a holdover from the 40s and 50s when 25 steals might lead the league. Today almost everyone has a slide step, and/or a short, compact delivery designed to stop base stealing.

If Piazza caught in the 1960s and 70s he might not have ever thrown anyone out.

I don't believe I'm going to suggest that the idea that the defensive differences between Mike Piazza and Johnny Bench are negligible is up for debate. It's an unreasonable position.

I never said Piazza was as good a defensive catcher as Johnny Bench.

I am done with this dicussion.

[Frobby]

Given that Bench is probably the best defensive catcher of all time, at least among those who could hit at all, and Piazza the worst among those with a long career at the position, it's not hard to see defense making up 69 points of OPS.

I think Ivan Rodriguez has a pretty good argument that he's the best defensive catcher of all time among those who could hit.

[orayole]

I suspect steroids so no way.

[mweb]

Josh Gibson. Otherwise, Bench.

[SilverRocket]

Just a back-of-the-napkin calculation of runs saved on stolen bases and caught puts Bench about 300 runs ahead on defense.

What's the formula for this?

[DrungoHazewood]

What's the formula for this?

A steal is worth 1/3 of a run, a caught is -2/3. It's quick and dirty, but close enough for arguments at a bar.