Piazza Retires - Best Catcher Ever?

[DrungoHazewood]

I think Ivan Rodriguez has a pretty good argument that he's the best defensive catcher of all time among those who could hit.

That he does. But Bench has a decent one, too.

[DrungoHazewood]

Josh Gibson. Otherwise, Bench.

Could be, unfortunately we'll never know. Bench might have hit 800 homers, too, if he'd played 250 games a year, some against local pickup teams at county fairgrounds.

[mrwheby1]

Depends on what you want....

Defense: I Rod

Offense: Piazza

Somewhere in-between: Bench

Personally, I'll take I Rod.

[mweb]

Could be, unfortunately we'll never know. Bench might have hit 800 homers, too, if he'd played 250 games a year, some against local pickup teams at county fairgrounds.

No, we won't know for sure about him or Oscar Charleston along with the other Negro League greats. I know their stats don't mean that much, but in regards to those two players, quite a few major league players, coaches, and scouts thought they were as good or better than the greats of MLB.

As I'm sure you know, Bill James had Charleston 4th all time, and Gibson 9th in his revised Historical Baseball Abstract. Bench 44th, just behind Berra at 41st.

[DrungoHazewood]

No, we won't know for sure about him or Oscar Charleston along with the other Negro League greats. I know their stats don't mean that much, but in regards to those two players, quite a few major league players, coaches, and scouts thought they were as good or better than the greats of MLB.

As I'm sure you know, Bill James had Charleston 4th all time, and Gibson 9th in his revised Historical Baseball Abstract. Bench 44th, just behind Berra at 41st.

Yea, I know. But I take any rankings based almost solely on subjective opinions with a grain of salt. Charleston might have been the best player ever. Or the 80th. Gibson is in the same boat. James is forced to rank Negro Leaguers like some of those "100 greatest players of all time" books I read as a kid ranked everyone - basically by informed guesses. Those books would more-or-less agree on a lot of players, but then one of them would have Brooks Robinson 45th all time, while another wouldn't even list him.

[mweb]

Yea, I know. But I take any rankings based almost solely on subjective opinions with a grain of salt. Charleston might have been the best player ever. Or the 80th. Gibson is in the same boat. James is forced to rank Negro Leaguers like some of those "100 greatest players of all time" books I read as a kid ranked everyone - basically by informed guesses. Those books would more-or-less agree on a lot of players, but then one of them would have Brooks Robinson 45th all time, while another wouldn't even list him.

If it was done by some random guy, I'd also take it with a grain of salt, but since it's Bill James, I'll give it more credence.

[DrungoHazewood]

If it was done by some random guy, I'd also take it with a grain of salt, but since it's Bill James, I'll give it more credence.

Sure. I tend to think Charleston was closer to the best player ever than the 80th, but that's still just a guess. There's a darn good chance Bill James' guess is better than mine.

[RShack]

Sure. I tend to think Charleston was closer to the best player ever than the 80th, but that's still just a guess. There's a darn good chance Bill James' guess is better than mine.

I agree with this... unless it's about D. I heard Bill James on TV saying that, not only was Schmidt the best 3B-man ever (which I agree with), but that Schmidt was also the best defensive 3B-man ever, which is just wrong.

I admire Bill James. He's a hero of mine. He deserves credit for pretty much inventing a whole field of study, based on using numbers to answer interesting questions in a usually-sensible and often-creative manner. But he does have his blind spots, just like anybody else does.

[Frobby]

Given that Bench is probably the best defensive catcher of all time, at least among those who could hit at all, and Piazza the worst among those with a long career at the position, it's not hard to see defense making up 69 points of OPS.

I think Ivan Rodriguez has a pretty good argument that he's the best defensive catcher of all time among those who could hit.

That he does. But Bench has a decent one, too.

We're on the same page here. It's debatable who was better defensively between Bench and Rodriguez. It's not debatable that they are far and away the top two (at least among those who could hit at all, as you put it).

Two questions:

1. If you had to choose between the two defensively, who would you choose and why?

2. If you take away the limitation of "those who could hit," is there someone else in the conversation? I can think of some pretty good defensive catchers like Bob Boone, Jim Sundberg and Brad Ausmus, but I'd still take Bench or Rodriguez over them defensively, I think.

[Leitch]

We're on the same page here. It's debatable who was better defensively between Bench and Rodriguez. It's not debatable that they are far and away the top two (at least among those who could hit at all, as you put it).

Two questions:

1. If you had to choose between the two defensively, who would you choose and why?

2. If you take away the limitation of "those who could hit," is there someone else in the conversation? I can think of some pretty good defensive catchers like Bob Boone, Jim Sundberg and Brad Ausmus, but I'd still take Bench or Rodriguez over them defensively, I think.

Alberto Castillo

[NJOriolesFan]

I'm not sure you've fully accounted for the offensive contexts of Bench's and Piazza's careers, nor the value of their defensive abilities.

Bench played in times and places were about 5% fewer runs than the historical average for MLB. Piazza, despite playing mostly in pitcher's parks played in a very high-run era, such that he saw about 5% more runs than the historical average. So while Piazza's numbers are impressive in any era, they'd be superficially less impressive in almost any other time including the one in which Johnny Bench played.

Go check out bb-ref's Neutralize Stats feature. In a neutral context Piazza has a .907 OPS, Bench an .838. Given that Bench is probably the best defensive catcher of all time, at least among those who could hit at all, and Piazza the worst among those with a long career at the position, it's not hard to see defense making up 69 points of OPS.

The amazing thing about Piazza is the 5 teams he has played for and their home ballparks. Ok, he only played for the Marlins for a handful of games but he played in Dodger Stadium, Shea Stadium, Oakland Colliseum and Petco. Is it incredible that he played for four teams, essentially in the most difficult ballparks and still put up the best offensive numbers for a catcher ever and likely top 5 of all offensive players in his era.

[Mashed Potatoes]

Matt Wieters is the best catcher ever.

[mweb]

The amazing thing about Piazza is the 5 teams he has played for and their home ballparks. Ok, he only played for the Marlins for a handful of games but he played in Dodger Stadium, Shea Stadium, Oakland Colliseum and Petco. Is it incredible that he played for four teams, essentially in the most difficult ballparks and still put up the best offensive numbers for a catcher ever and likely top 5 of all offensive players in his era.

Very good point, and one that most likely overlook. It's also worth mentioning that other than his final year when he wasn't catching, he didn't have the advantage of being able to take days off and stay in the lineup at DH, other than interleague play of course.

[baltimoriole]

Hs everyone forgotten Chris Hoiles?