It's time to go back to a seven man pen

[eddie83]

44 minutes ago, thezeroes said:

This is the thrust of the whole argument.  There is not another version of the 2016 Zach Britton to be found.  As fans, we are a bunch of "Spoiled Brats".

Who said there was?

It is the industry standard to have a 7 man pen. The Orioles without their closer and coming of an off day have 2 more pitchers not able to pitch. Are you ok with Buck having fo push his starters out of necessity? No one expects the guys they call up to be as good as Zach, that isn't the point. 

[Frobby]

7 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

The fact that Nuno is pitching after an off day says it all in a tie game in the 8th inning. That set fans off, obviously had we known that 2 pitchers aren't available then it makes sense. 

There is a trickle down impact of going with a short pen. 

I don't think so.    There would be a trickle down effect if we were using a Brach, O'Day or Givens to handle middle relief innings that they wouldn't otherwise cover because we were short handed in long or middle relief.   That hasn't been the case.   The problem is that (1) Britton is on the DL, so whoever we use in the 9th isn't available in the 7th or 8th, (2) O'Day has been unavailable a bit more than usual, first due to flu and now due to who knows what, and (3) we've been ahead in so many games that our back end guys are getting used a lot.   To the last point, we've had 21 save opportunities, most in the league; league average is 14; the Yankees, who have a virtually identical record, have 13; the Astros, who have the best record in the league, have 17.     That's put a lot of pressure on our back end guys and adding an extra Verrett, Bleier, Ynoa or whoever isn't really going to change that.    

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I don't think so.    There would be a trickle down effect if we were using a Brach, O'Day or Givens to handle middle relief innings that they wouldn't otherwise cover because we were short handed in long or middle relief.   That hasn't been the case.   The problem is that (1) Britton is on the DL, so whoever we use in the 9th isn't available in the 7th or 8th, (2) O'Day has been unavailable a bit more than usual, first due to flu and now due to who knows what, and (3) we've been ahead in so many games that our back end guys are getting used a lot.   To the last point, we've had 21 save opportunities, most in the league; league average is 14; the Yankees, who have a virtually identical record, have 13; the Astros, who have the best record in the league, have 17.     That's put a lot of pressure on our back end guys and adding an extra Verrett, Bleier, Ynoa or whoever isn't really going to change that.    

At some point that is going to happen. What if Bundy was pulled early last night? 

You have no choice but to trust someone else here and there. They are going to for now have to try Asher in a Givens type role and push Givens up a spot. 

Your point about the saves chances is a valid one. That said we have seen Buck push his starters because he had no choice. He needs options, even less than ideal ones. 

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

At some point that is going to happen. What if Bundy was pulled early last night? 

You have no choice but to trust someone else here and there. They are going to for now have to try Asher in a Givens type role and push Givens up a spot. 

Your point about the saves chances is a valid one. That said we have seen Buck push his starters because he had no choice. He needs options, even less than ideal ones. 

But I can't think of games where he hasn't had options in the middle innings.    And it's not that he hasn't had enough options in the later innings, it's that the guys he'd really like to use are either unavailable or a bit tired.    Asher was an option on Wednesday, Nuno was an option yesterday.   For that matter, he could have gone back to Asher.    

Just to reiterate, I'm not necessarily opposing having a 7-man pen.    I'm just saying I don't think the shorter pen was the reason we lost the last two games.   

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

But I can't think of games where he hasn't had options in the middle innings.    And it's not that he hasn't had enough options in the later innings, it's that the guys he'd really like to use are either unavailable or a bit tired.    Asher was an option on Wednesday, Nuno was an option yesterday.   For that matter, he could have gone back to Asher.    

Just to reiterate, I'm not necessarily opposing having a 7-man pen.    I'm just saying I don't think the shorter pen was the reason we lost the last two games.   

I agree about the last 2 games. Sorry if I came across otherwise. 

If Bundy gets yanked early lady night then you better hope Nuno eats the rest. If he does that than another move needs fo be made. 

My concern is at some point he is going to have no choice but to burn a quality arm in the middle of the game because he has no one else.  

What I am trying to say and maybe I have done a poor job of saying it is that we need to give an Asher-like he did the other night- a chance late in games. We have no choice right now.  I think Buck has pushed his starters more than usual early on. 

[bpilktree]

Watching wall to wall baseball and they were talking about it.  Dave johnson brought up a nice point that the Orioles feel that if we just let Rickard go down, or DFA Gentry or Kim in hurts on aspect of the game.   He mentions that a key guy could be Michael Bourn.  Bourn could give us a left handed bat which can take the spot that Kim has yet has speed and good defense that can replace Gentry.  Bourn could allow you to let go or trade those guys and he fills almost two spots up.  That would allow you the 7 man pen.  He also said that doesn't mean Bourn plays against right handers and Manici plays vs lefties.  He would start Mancini 5 or 6 games a weak but Bourn is there as a left handed hitter a speed guy and decent defender.  That made a lot of sense which with Johnson is a bit odd.

 

 

[eddie83]

4 minutes ago, bpilktree said:

Watching wall to wall baseball and they were talking about it.  Dave johnson brought up a nice point that the Orioles feel that if we just let Rickard go down, or DFA Gentry or Kim in hurts on aspect of the game.   He mentions that a key guy could be Michael Bourn.  Bourn could give us a left handed bat which can take the spot that Kim has yet has speed and good defense that can replace Gentry.  Bourn could allow you to let go or trade those guys and he fills almost two spots up.  That would allow you the 7 man pen.  He also said that doesn't mean Bourn plays against right handers and Manici plays vs lefties.  He would start Mancini 5 or 6 games a weak but Bourn is there as a left handed hitter a speed guy and decent defender.  That made a lot of sense which with Johnson is a bit odd.

 

 

If teams thought Bourn could still hit then why was he without a job? I could see the Orioles doing what Dave describes. 

I know Bourn hit well in September last year but not before. 

[TINSTAAPP]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

While I'm fine with the idea of going to a 7-man pen, for the life of me I don't see how that would have changed the outcome of the last two games.     Unless they've got a 7th guy down there who's the next Zach Britton.  

Logan Verrett's pitched very well yet they keep sending him down at every opportunity. I definitely would have been more comfortable with him pitching the 8th last night than Vidal Nuno. 

[TINSTAAPP]

23 minutes ago, bpilktree said:

Watching wall to wall baseball and they were talking about it.  Dave johnson brought up a nice point that the Orioles feel that if we just let Rickard go down, or DFA Gentry or Kim in hurts on aspect of the game.   He mentions that a key guy could be Michael Bourn.  Bourn could give us a left handed bat which can take the spot that Kim has yet has speed and good defense that can replace Gentry.  Bourn could allow you to let go or trade those guys and he fills almost two spots up.  That would allow you the 7 man pen.  He also said that doesn't mean Bourn plays against right handers and Manici plays vs lefties.  He would start Mancini 5 or 6 games a weak but Bourn is there as a left handed hitter a speed guy and decent defender.  That made a lot of sense which with Johnson is a bit odd.

 

 

How does sending Joey Rickard down hurt the club? Rickard is below average in every aspect of the game except hitting left-handed pitching and he hasn't even hit lefties that well this year (.290 OBP and .724 OPS against LHP). 

[bpilktree]

11 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

If teams thought Bourn could still hit then why was he without a job? I could see the Orioles doing what Dave describes. 

I know Bourn hit well in September last year but not before. 

Bourn is not an everyday player but that doesn't mean teams didn't want him he is the normal end of spring type signing teams make to cheap deals and even minor league deals.  He is basically a 4th outfielder at this point.  He actually has not been a bad hitter over the last couple years just looked real bad because of price,  2015 he struggled for sure but other years he has been .260-.275 hitter.  The way Mancini is playing he should get a bulk of the starts but Bourn is a guy that can fill in for a few days and not hurt team.

I would like to see Bourn come up DFA Gentry and move Kim and then send Nuno down with Verret up and Yacabonis up n the next 10 days or so.

[bpilktree]

1 minute ago, TINSTAAPP said:

How does sending Joey Rickard down hurt the club? Rickard is below average in every aspect of the game except hitting left-handed pitching and he hasn't even hit lefties that well this year (.290 OBP and .724 OPS against LHP). 

He is a solid defender and gives them some speed and late inning replacement.  They don't want Mancini, Kim, Trumbo and Smith in the outfield late in a close game.

[eddie83]

4 minutes ago, bpilktree said:

Bourn is not an everyday player but that doesn't mean teams didn't want him he is the normal end of spring type signing teams make to cheap deals and even minor league deals.  He is basically a 4th outfielder at this point.  He actually has not been a bad hitter over the last couple years just looked real bad because of price,  2015 he struggled for sure but other years he has been .260-.275 hitter.  The way Mancini is playing he should get a bulk of the starts but Bourn is a guy that can fill in for a few days and not hurt team.

I would like to see Bourn come up DFA Gentry and move Kim and then send Nuno down with Verret up and Yacabonis up n the next 10 days or so.

This all comes back to Mancini and health. If Trey keeps hitting and Smith never gets hurt and we know that to be a fact then that changes things. 

I think Kim is more of a consistent option then Bourn is. As a bench player Bourn is no doubt the better player. It is May 13th, I am not assuming Mancini keeps this up and Smith stays healthy.  

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, bpilktree said:

He is a solid defender and gives them some speed and late inning replacement.  They don't want Mancini, Kim, Trumbo and Smith in the outfield late in a close game.

You would have an OF of Gentry and Smith late in games if Joey gets sent down. 

[eddie83]

This team can't get on base. We have seen the quality at bats Smith has had. Do the Orioles forget Kim's OBP last year?  The at bat he had in Toronto late in the year, a pinch hit HR was a beauty. I think having someone who can get on base is great for this club. When this team doesn hit and strikes out 50 times a night having a Kim here would be a benefit.

[thezeroes]

1 hour ago, eddie83 said:

When this team doesn hit and strikes out 50 times a night having a Kim here would be a benefit.

No need to exaggerate.