Let's Help Dan

[tntoriole]

This is just the end result of trading young pitching to get players that we thought would get us to the championship.

Right or wrong, put Jake, EdRod, Davies, , Bridwell, Hader in the open slots or even lesser losses like Miggy, Miranda..and we would not be having this discussion.  They traded the young pitching they had, got the return that they sought, and now they don’t have enough pitching for 2018...not too surprising. 

[LookitsPuck]

46 minutes ago, Number5 said:

This isn't semantics.  You chose to paint a picture that wasn't quite true.  We both know this.  I called you on it.  Simple as that.  That the Gallardo signing was a poor one is enough to say, and pretty much everyone is in complete agreement on that.  There was no need to imply that DD went against doctors' advice.  As you well know, he didn't.

How can you say for sure?

I remember packing to go down to Florida for spring training and hearing the news. 

My gut is that Duquette waited far too long to sign a starting pitcher and the O's doctors told him that there were issues with the MRI. Who knows on whether they gave Duquette the risks and Duquette proceeded anyway. 

Chances are if Gallardo "failed" his physical in December as opposed to, say, February...he would have never been signed. That's just my guess.

But my guess is as good as yours which is as good as Can_of_corn's. The O's doctors history shows that they'd be heavily opposed to signing a guy like Gallardo given the physical. They've been right in the past. 

So, yeah. Who knows what the truth is. I just remember that offseason and the Gallardo signing reeking of desperation along with the botched signing and PR handling of Dexter Fowler. 

[theocean]

35 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

How can you say for sure?

I remember packing to go down to Florida for spring training and hearing the news. 

My gut is that Duquette waited far too long to sign a starting pitcher and the O's doctors told him that there were issues with the MRI. Who knows on whether they gave Duquette the risks and Duquette proceeded anyway. 

Chances are if Gallardo "failed" his physical in December as opposed to, say, February...he would have never been signed. That's just my guess.

But my guess is as good as yours which is as good as Can_of_corn's. The O's doctors history shows that they'd be heavily opposed to signing a guy like Gallardo given the physical. They've been right in the past. 

So, yeah. Who knows what the truth is. I just remember that offseason and the Gallardo signing reeking of desperation along with the botched signing and PR handling of Dexter Fowler. 

I'm sorry, this is some pretty wild speculation - and also inaccurate. The Orioles spent most of the offseason waiting on the Chris Davis situation to be resolved. They also had Miguel Gonzalez at the time - so it wasn't like the O's absolutely needed another starter. The concern with Gallardo's physical had to do with how long his shoulder would hold up. That's why they shortened the length on the deal.

In that offseason, most of the other starting free agent pitchers (Price, Grienke, Cueto, Chen, Leake, Samardzija, Zimmerman) were outside the Oriole's budget.

The pitchers in their price range - Ian Kennedy, Scott Kazmir, Brett Anderson, Mat Latos - were all just as bad as Gallardo.

Marco Estrada and JA Happ were free agents - but who really thought they'd be as good as they were.

I know it's been a slow offseason, but some of the posts lately have started to sound like conspiracy theories.

[El Gordo]

19 minutes ago, theocean said:

I'm sorry, this is some pretty wild speculation - and also inaccurate. The Orioles spent most of the offseason waiting on the Chris Davis situation to be resolved. They also had Miguel Gonzalez at the time - so it wasn't like the O's absolutely needed another starter. The concern with Gallardo's physical had to do with how long his shoulder would hold up. That's why they shortened the length on the deal.

In that offseason, most of the other starting free agent pitchers (Price, Grienke, Cueto, Chen, Leake, Samardzija, Zimmerman) were outside the Oriole's budget.

The pitchers in their price range - Ian Kennedy, Scott Kazmir, Brett Anderson, Mat Latos - were all just as bad as Gallardo.

Marco Estrada and JA Happ were free agents - but who really thought they'd be as good as they were.

I know it's been a slow offseason, but some of the posts lately have started to sound like conspiracy theories.

Frobby stop screwing with other peoples agendas.

[davearm]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

He didn't pass the physical.

If he did he would have received the three years they agreed on.  He failed the physical so they renegotiated.

I am not sure why you once again want to argue over semantics with me, you must be bored.

You don't pass the physical then renegotiate for less years.

 

And you also know I never said that Dan signed him after the medical folks said not to. You know I didn't say it and yet claim I did.  

 

1 hour ago, Number5 said:

This isn't semantics.  You chose to paint a picture that wasn't quite true.  We both know this.  I called you on it.  Simple as that.  That the Gallardo signing was a poor one is enough to say, and pretty much everyone is in complete agreement on that.  There was no need to imply that DD went against doctors' advice.  As you well know, he didn't.

I keep envisioning a team doctor sitting down at a desk when one of these exams is over, opening a drawer with a big red FAIL stamp and a big green PASS stamp, the player's fate resting on which one he reaches for.

 

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, theocean said:

A team like the Orioles needs to be able to develop pitching. They are awful at it. As soon as a pitcher leaves the organization, they figure it out (Arrieta, Bridwell, Hader, Davies). 

Hader and Davies are bad examples.    They both did extremely well in our organization.  

[weams]

8 hours ago, ThomasTomasz said:

Angelos, more often than not since the turn of the century, has a payroll in the top 10-12 range.  That being said, even though he is willing to spend, he also puts insane restrictions on things based on his personal beliefs.  That includes not participating in the international market that much, not utilizing the posting system, signing pitchers long-term, crazy physicals, etc.  

The problem with this roster now is that you have guys in their final year or two before arbitration.  So part of your core of players is at their most expensive point.  This includes Manny, Schoop, Britton, Brach, Gausman.  Then you have some ill-fated decisions on some others in the core, Davis, Trumbo and O'Day come to mind.  

So we do have some room to make misses from time to time with a top 10 payroll, but then that means we have to be perfect in the draft, or perfect picking up bargains and dumpster signings, because we can't use all of the systems and processes available to us.  And that falls on ownership.  That's where I'm mad at Angelos.  

The physicals are accurate and savvy. 

[Bahama O's Fan]

11 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Angelos let Dan give a pitcher a four year contract.

How did that work out?

I heard that is what turned him away. It wasn't the four year contract, it was the pitcher that it was given to.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

I heard that is what turned him away. It wasn't the four year contract, it was the pitcher that it was given to.

He wasn't in the habit of giving pitches four years before Ubaldo.  He was more of an exception that proved his rule.

[oriole]

12 hours ago, weams said:

I bet they don't offer him Wood money. 

Wood is making $6.5m this year and that's from a 2/12 contract he signed prior to 2016 and the Tigers aren't paying any of that, the Royals are. I don't know the rules well enough to know if he makes it to the 40 man roster if that $6.5m is then on the Tigers but I would guess that's a no. 

[beervendor]

9 hours ago, davearm said:

 

I keep envisioning a team doctor sitting down at a desk when one of these exams is over, opening a drawer with a big red FAIL stamp and a big green PASS stamp, the player's fate resting on which one he reaches for.

 

Are they cartoonishly large stamps??? PLEASE let them be cartoonishly large!

Medical exams are not pass/fail propositions. Sure, some shoulders and elbows might be pristine and others completely shredded but I'm guessing nearly all pitchers (and probably many position players) have some amount of wear and tear on vital joints. Docs only assess and provide well-educated guesses as to likelihood of future injury. Gallardo clearly didn't pass or he'd still be cashing checks with a bird on them. He clearly didn't fail since he did ultimately steal $11M from the team.

[nate22]

Should we have tried to dump Trumbo on the A's for Jesse Hahn. I wonder?

[Tx Oriole]

12 hours ago, tntoriole said:

This is just the end result of trading young pitching to get players that we thought would get us to the championship.

Right or wrong, put Jake, EdRod, Davies, , Bridwell, Hader in the open slots or even lesser losses like Miggy, Miranda..and we would not be having this discussion.  They traded the young pitching they had, got the return that they sought, and now they don’t have enough pitching for 2018...not too surprising. 

It's bad how this organization has gone down hill. 

[lifelongbirdfan]

Trade for Jason Hammel (Royals want to dump salary)

Trade decent prospect to Dodgers for Ryu (beats overpaying for vargas)

Sign Tillman to incentive based MLB deal

Sign Cargo to platoon with Hays

At deadline, we have a firesale unless the wildcard window is open, then can give up more for starter depth.

Done.

[foxfield]

20 hours ago, Dipper9 said:

The problem is DD keeps talking about money and "competing in this market."  The fact is Angelos has opened up the checkbook in recent years, but Duke is not creative enough in building a team.  He got lucky with guys like Chen and others who played over their expectations, but in general he has failed to make good trades or get creative in his moves.  The problem is no longer Angelos (although many here will argue that.)  The problem is Duquette and his performance since he wasn't allowed to go to Toronto. 

I have two questions, that I pose to you:

What would the Orioles team look like if it hadn't resigned Chris Davis and/or Mark Trumbo?

Do you think those were calls made by DD?

Do you think DD made the call to not offer pitchers 4 year contracts?

Do you think DD refuses to play in International market?

Do you think think DD refused the trade of Britton?

Do you think DD is unwilling to trade Manny?

 

Oops!  I guess you can pick two...

 

***DD is not perfect, but ANY credible analysis simply has to mention how f'd up the ownership is.  Yes PA will spend money.  But you want Dan to be more creative in his moves?  How creative do you think he could be with 200 MM given to Davis and Trumbo?  I don't know either, but I think that matters.  A bunch!