Rosenthal: Orioles are in a state of confusion

[ORIOLE33]

^^^Good post.

#Trust The Process#

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I have been reading posters on the OH for years talk about how they "can't wait for the rebuild."  Do what the Astros and Cubs did.  Blow it up.   Its the only way to get the high choices and have a chance to rebuild  to win the World Series.

Well, here we are.  Right where you wanted the Orioles.

 

Relax and enjoy the rebuild. Expect low attendance.  Expect a lot of losing.  If I live,  I will be here to wait and watch.  How about you?

I wanted them to start a year ago so no, we are not right where I wanted them.

Now let's see if they do it the right way.

[Morgan423]

1 hour ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Well yeah tha

 

Norfolk Orioles

Considering that the Orioles are not even on pace to win the amount of games that an average AAA would be expected to win if they were transplanted into MLB...  the Norfolk Orioles would actually be an improvement. 

[TGO]

26 minutes ago, ORIOLE33 said:

^^^Good post.

#Trust The Process#

The problem is you can't trust a Process being run by people who do not know or cannot agree on what the Process is and who may or may not actually be here to run the run the Process two months from now.

Sam Hinkie had organizational buy-in. So did the Astros. The Orioles, if Rosenthal is to be believed (and he has his axes to grind, so a grain of salt is recommended), do not even seem to know who is making decisions for ownership at this point.

[24fps]

41 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I have been reading posters on the OH for years talk about how they "can't wait for the rebuild."  Do what the Astros and Cubs did.  Blow it up.   Its the only way to get the high choices and have a chance to rebuild  to win the World Series.

Well, here we are.  Right where you wanted the Orioles.

The Astros lost 111 games in 2013.   Their attendance was 27th in the MLB.  And Houston is the 4th largest cities in the US.   Baltimore does not have have that kind of  drawing power with a small market.   So we should expect low attendance.  Its part of the process that many were praying to happen.

I am sure that John and Lou know that they have to settle the MASN dispute in order to get approved as owners. Peter probably still has a say in that.  So it might take a while to settle.

Whether Dan comes back should be announced shortly after the season ends.   If he is not back a GM/VP of Baseball Ops  search could take a couple of months.  Whats the rush?  The O's are not competing for expensive FA this off season.   Brady can make up a 40 man roster.   If they keep Brian Graham he  can help.   Other then the Rule 5 draft in December I don't expect much adding to the roster.   Non tenders can be decided by Brady and ownership.  They would be marginal players anyway.

So ease back in your chair, don't get excited  and wait for the rebuild to unfold.   By January the O's can decided if they can find trades for Cobb, Givens, Trumbo, Bundy if that is the direction they decide to go.  

Some wanted this to happen.  It will take years to rebuild.  Maybe 3, 4, 5, 6.  It depends on how the young players they acquire mature.   It will take 8 to 10 good ones to form a core of winners.   The last core started with the drafting of Markakis is 2003,  the Jones and Tillman trade in 2008.   And they did not have a good enough core to win until 2012.

Relax and enjoy the rebuild. Expect low attendance.  Expect a lot of losing.  If I live,  I will be here to wait and watch.  How about you?

I peg the over/under at 18 months before many of the same people demanding a complete Astros-style rebuild start throwing tantrums over how little Orioles management is spending on free agents and how we need to spend to keep up in the AL East.

[spiritof66]

If the Angeloses are not informing MLB as to what the top management situation is, who is calling the shots and what the future plans for ownership and control are, they are even dumber than I thought they were. When Peter dies (if not before), his heirs are going to be asking the owners to approve a transfer of the team to his widow or son(s). Keeping the team in a terrible state, and not communicating clearly and candidly with MLB (or with the media or what remains of the fan base) is not going to gain them a lot of votes. 

About a couple of other points made in this thread. MLB (and the other owners) can't require Angelos or his heirs to sell the team. The grounds for terminating ownership of a franchise are listed in Article VIII, Section 4 of the MLB Constitution, and none of them is present here. What MLB could do is to induce the Angeloses to sell, either by the carrot of settling the MASN dispute with the Orioles and Nats or with a stick like telling the Angeloses that 20 other owners are dead set against approving a transfer to an Angelos family member.

Finally, I saw another suggestion that if the owners withhold approval of a transfer to an Angelos heir, there will be years of litigation challenging that withholding. Maybe, but I don't see it. Though I've asked a few times, nobody has suggested what the legal basis for that lawsuit would be. Like every other owner or controlling partner/shareholder of an MLB team, Peter Angelos knew when he got in that he would not be able to sell or transfer the team (even in death) without the consent of the other owners. That's the deal among the owners, including Peter, and he bought into that deal when he bought the team. The owners don't need a good reason to withhold their consent to continuing the Angeloses' ownership after Peter's death, but they have plenty, and those reasons get better every day this stinking team festers, playing terrible baseball before tiny "crowds," without so much as a peep from the owners. If the Angeloses sued, I think the lawsuit would be short-lived.

 

[wildcard]

30 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

If the Angeloses are not informing MLB as to what the top management situation is, who is calling the shots and what the future plans for ownership and control are, they are even dumber than I thought they were. When Peter dies (if not before), his heirs are going to be asking the owners to approve a transfer of the team to his widow or son(s). Keeping the team in a terrible state, and not communicating clearly and candidly with MLB (or with the media or what remains of the fan base) is not going to gain them a lot of votes. 

About a couple of other points made in this thread. MLB (and the other owners) can't require Angelos or his heirs to sell the team. The grounds for terminating ownership of a franchise are listed in Article VIII, Section 4 of the MLB Constitution, and none of them is present here. What MLB could do is to induce the Angeloses to sell, either by the carrot of settling the MASN dispute with the Orioles and Nats or with a stick like telling the Angeloses that 20 other owners are dead set against approving a transfer to an Angelos family member.

Finally, I saw another suggestion that if the owners withhold approval of a transfer to an Angelos heir, there will be years of litigation challenging that withholding. Maybe, but I don't see it. Though I've asked a few times, nobody has suggested what the legal basis for that lawsuit would be. Like every other owner or controlling partner/shareholder of an MLB team, Peter Angelos knew when he got in that he would not be able to sell or transfer the team (even in death) without the consent of the other owners. That's the deal among the owners, including Peter, and he bought into that deal when he bought the team. The owners don't need a good reason to withhold their consent to continuing the Angeloses' ownership after Peter's death, but they have plenty, and those reasons get better every day this stinking team festers, playing terrible baseball before tiny "crowds," without so much as a peep from the owners. If the Angeloses sued, I think the lawsuit would be short-lived.

 

I have no idea how the other 29 owners feel about the commissioner trying to strong arm Peter Angelos into an unfairly settling in the MASN dispute.  That is not me talking that is what a judge decided.    What makes you think a majority of the owners would side with the commissioner?  Would they want the commissioner to the same thing to them?

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I have no idea how the other 29 owners feel about the commissioner trying to strong arm Peter Angelos into an unfairly settling in the MASN dispute.  That is not me talking that is what a judge decided.    What makes you think a majority of the owners would side with the commissioner?  Would they want the commissioner to the same thing to them?

I’m guessing the vast majority of owners feel that Angelos should have accepted the decision of the RSDC, rather than taking the matter to court contrary to the MASN agreement and MLB’s general methods of resolving disputes.    I have little doubt that he burned a lot of bridges.  

[FlipTheBird]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m guessing the vast majority of owners feel that Angelos should have accepted the decision of the RSDC, rather than taking the matter to court contrary to the MASN agreement and MLB’s general methods of resolving disputes.    I have little doubt that he burned a lot of bridges.  

Can't burn bridges that weren't there. Angelos napalmed all league ties when he was pro Union during the strike. He had nothing to lose by fighting the MASN decision.

[weams]

1 minute ago, FlipTheBird said:

Can't burn bridges that weren't there. Angelos napalmed all league ties when he was pro Union during the strike. He had nothing to lose by fighting the MASN decision.

He was on the competition committee with Andy MacPhail All that stopped after the strong arm for the Nationals was unsuccessful. 

[atomic]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

I have been reading posters on the OH for years talk about how they "can't wait for the rebuild."  Do what the Astros and Cubs did.  Blow it up.   Its the only way to get the high choices and have a chance to rebuild  to win the World Series.

Well, here we are.  Right where you wanted the Orioles.

The Astros lost 111 games in 2013.   Their attendance was 27th in the MLB.  And Houston is the 4th largest cities in the US.   Baltimore does not have have that kind of  drawing power with a small market.   So we should expect low attendance.  Its part of the process that many were praying to happen.

I am sure that John and Lou know that they have to settle the MASN dispute in order to get approved as owners. Peter probably still has a say in that.  So it might take a while to settle.

Whether Dan comes back should be announced shortly after the season ends.   If he is not back a GM/VP of Baseball Ops  search could take a couple of months.  Whats the rush?  The O's are not competing for expensive FA this off season.   Brady can make up a 40 man roster.   If they keep Brian Graham he  can help.   Other then the Rule 5 draft in December I don't expect much adding to the roster.   Non tenders can be decided by Brady and ownership.  They would be marginal players anyway.

So ease back in your chair, don't get excited  and wait for the rebuild to unfold.   By January the O's can decided if they can find trades for Cobb, Givens, Trumbo, Bundy if that is the direction they decide to go.  

Some wanted this to happen.  It will take years to rebuild.  Maybe 3, 4, 5, 6.  It depends on how the young players they acquire mature.   It will take 8 to 10 good ones to form a core of winners.   The last core started with the drafting of Markakis is 2003,  the Jones and Tillman trade in 2008.   And they did not have a good enough core to win until 2012.

Relax and enjoy the rebuild. Expect low attendance.  Expect a lot of losing.  If I live,  I will be here to wait and watch.  How about you?

I was always against an Astros type rebuild.  

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Mancini and Beckam are the only two in the lineup that never spent time in AAA this year.

The sad part?

Besides Mullins, which one of these guys have a chance of being a significant piece on a competitive Orioles team in the future?

The guys that are going to be on the next winning Orioles squad are not on the current roster.  Except for maybe a certain few like Mullins.  

[weams]

Just now, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

The guys that are going to be on the next winning Orioles squad are not on the current roster.  Except for maybe a certain few like Mullins.  

Some of them are on the 40 man though. 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 hour ago, Morgan423 said:

Considering that the Orioles are not even on pace to win the amount of games that an average AAA would be expected to win if they were transplanted into MLB...  the Norfolk Orioles would actually be an improvement. 

Ouch and true.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

Just now, weams said:

Some of them are on the 40 man though. 

That I can agree on.