Elias J2 International Orioles

[SteveA]

1 hour ago, TGO said:

I'm wondering what the "rules" (unwritten) are with respect to those verbal agreements / hand shake deals. If another team has an agreement with a player for, say, $1 million and we call him up and offer $1.5 million, what would happen? The team that had the agreement can't really enforce the deal they had with the player, and MLB can't really charge the Orioles with tampering or anything like that since this entire system of verbal agreements is not binding or sanctioned by the league (and in fact is done to get around one of the league's restrictions). I assume though that other teams would frown upon this kind of thing and take it out on the buscones involved and, if they get the opportunity, the Orioles.

Since Elias and Perez were both with other teams that had much larger international scouting presences, they presumably are very aware of the players in this upcoming signing window and probably even know where a number of them have committed and for how much.

These are very young kids, very much under the influence of their parents and the buscones.   If their parents have maybe been helped out a little bit by a little under the table money, the parents are certainly going to make sure the kid goes where he's supposed to.

I mean look at what goes on in college basketball recruiting, and those guys are a full two years older and wiser than these kids are.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, SteveA said:

These are very young kids, very much under the influence of their parents and the buscones.   If their parents have maybe been helped out a little bit by a little under the table money, the parents are certainly going to make sure the kid goes where he's supposed to.

I mean look at what goes on in college basketball recruiting, and those guys are a full two years older and wiser than these kids are.

Yea don't buy it.

Unless of course the Buscones hire thugs to take revenge on families.  Of course I'm not sure why the Buscone wouldn't be happy with his cut of the extra money.  And extra say 75K is a huge, life changing amount of money for these families.

I think the real answer is that a gentleman's agreement is in place between teams to eliminate poaching.

 

 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yea don't buy it.

Unless of course the Buscones hire thugs to take revenge on families.  Of course I'm not sure why the Buscone wouldn't be happy with his cut of the extra money.  And extra say 75K is a huge, life changing amount of money for these families.

I think the real answer is that a gentleman's agreement is in place between teams to eliminate poaching.

 

 

Yep, and what goes around comes around.   

[atomic]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yea don't buy it.

Unless of course the Buscones hire thugs to take revenge on families.  Of course I'm not sure why the Buscone wouldn't be happy with his cut of the extra money.  And extra say 75K is a huge, life changing amount of money for these families.

I think the real answer is that a gentleman's agreement is in place between teams to eliminate poaching.

 

 

You don’t know how much the buscone’s are getting paid.  It could be as much as the players.

[ThomasTomasz]

9 hours ago, interloper said:

Certainly fair. 

I just find it unlikely that Elias would hire a Sr. Director of International Scouting, make tech upgrades to the DR facility, visit that facility himself, proclaim this next signing period will be the biggest in franchise history.... and then not follow up. 

But it is the Orioles, so. Waiting for the results before judging is probably smart. 

Also, you have to factor in folks from MLB Pipeline reporting that they've seen more Orioles scouts at these events than they have ever seen over the past two decades of international scouting.  So at the very least, the Orioles have very early put their money forward on adding scouts in the Caribbean.  However, we are essentially working with the good will that Elias, Perez and the scouts have build up over the years, and have to build our own program and identity.  That's going to take 3-4 years, if not longer, which means we aren't going to be able to judge successes and failures just after 1-2 signing periods.  

After this coming draft and signing period, the next bar to hurdle is how the front office is fleshed out following the season.  We all know Elias was hired late, and was able to add a few people to the front office, but there are clearly roles that need to be filled.  

[ThomasTomasz]

9 hours ago, atomic said:

Every GM we have had says the right things when they first came in. When DD first came in he hired Fred Ferriera and announced they were going to be very active internationally. Even made a bunch of international signings.  Chen, Wada, and Gonzalez 2 of the 3 who were very helpful in making us a winner.  

The team should be judged on actions and not words.  

They used Ferriera's specific expertise in the Pacific area to get Chen and Wada, and Gonzalez was a signing out of the Mexican League, but he already has an extensive MILB career and was a Rule 5 pick by the Red Sox at one point.  

They made a couple of other signings, but it seems that Peter Angelos shut them down from going after too many.  DD came in wanting to transform the scouting department into what he started with the Boston Red Sox, but received opposition from that.  Not only that, but our amateur scouting department here in the states was also one of the smallest in baseball, and why they so staunchly went after players who have one great tool i.e. Mancini's bat, Grenier's defense, etc.  DD was also stuck with a lot of folks from previous regimes.  

Now, we have MLB Pipeline reporters saying that they've seen the most Orioles scouts than they've ever seen before, the GM promising that this will be our busiest signing period on record, and that's with six months on the job.  Not to mention, it appears that a lot of the yes men from previous regimes have been either shown the door, or had their contracts expire.  

There is already enough change that has happened that I think progress is truly being made.  But it is going to take a long time to get us where we need to be.  

[Can_of_corn]

I don't think Fred was the key player in the Asian market. 

 

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, ThomasTomasz said:

They used Ferriera's specific expertise in the Pacific area to get Chen and Wada, and Gonzalez was a signing out of the Mexican League, but he already has an extensive MILB career and was a Rule 5 pick by the Red Sox at one point.  

Ferreira had nothing to do with Chen, who was on Buck’s radar before Duquette was even hired.    I don’t think Ferreira had anything to do with Wada, either, though I could be wrong.    He had everything to do with Gonzalez, who he personally scouted in the Mexican League, and I believe, signed him on the spot.    

[ThomasTomasz]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Ferreira had nothing to do with Chen, who was on Buck’s radar before Duquette was even hired.    I don’t think Ferreira had anything to do with Wada, either, though I could be wrong.    He had everything to do with Gonzalez, who he personally scouted in the Mexican League, and I believe, signed him on the spot.    

That's true, it was Poitevint, who was working under Ferriera.  Sometimes these guys run together to me.  Same as a Redskins fan, the front office and coaching churn is a chore to keep track of after a while.  

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, ThomasTomasz said:

That's true, it was Poitevint, who was working under Ferriera.  Sometimes these guys run together to me.  Same as a Redskins fan, the front office and coaching churn is a chore to keep track of after a while.  

He always struck me as being skeevy.

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, ThomasTomasz said:

That's true, it was Poitevint, who was working under Ferriera.  Sometimes these guys run together to me.  Same as a Redskins fan, the front office and coaching churn is a chore to keep track of after a while.  

It wasn’t Poitevint, either, at least as to Chen.   Like I said, the O’s were in on Chen before any of those guys arrived.    

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

It wasn’t Poitevint, either, at least as to Chen.   Like I said, the O’s were in on Chen before any of those guys arrived.    

Right, but he was Dan's point man in Asia.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right, but he was Dan's point man in Asia.

Yep.   Responsible for getting us kicked out of South Korea for a few years for signing a teenager without following the Korean rules, and signing a softball player from New Zealand.   I think he also was involved in the worthless Suk-Min Yoon signing.    And maybe Hyun Soo Kim.     Other than Kim, not a great track record.   

[ThomasTomasz]

9 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It wasn’t Poitevint, either, at least as to Chen.   Like I said, the O’s were in on Chen before any of those guys arrived.    

Poitevint was for Wada- I actually found an old FG article that said the Orioles would likely get something out of that investment (boy, were they wrong.) 

All I can find on a google search for Chen, even including Orioles, are articles about his struggles and advocating his release.  He went from being our most consistent starter to not being able to get anyone out.  Really astonishing in my opinion.  

[Frobby]

23 minutes ago, ThomasTomasz said:

Poitevint was for Wada- I actually found an old FG article that said the Orioles would likely get something out of that investment (boy, were they wrong.) 

All I can find on a google search for Chen, even including Orioles, are articles about his struggles and advocating his release.  He went from being our most consistent starter to not being able to get anyone out.  Really astonishing in my opinion.  

Poitevint was hired after Wada was signed.   

12/14/11 - Wada signed

1/9/12 - Poitevint hired

1/10/12 - Chen signed

The first time I ever heard Chen’s name was in a report of remarks Buck made at some offseason fan event where he was speaking.   It was in the period after MacPhail left and before Duquette was hired.   Buck said that O’s scouts had been following Chen and the team was interested.    So he didn’t come from Poitevint in the one day between when Poitevint was hired and when Chen signed.