Not to be whiny, but can we just cut Richie Martin loose already?

[Tony-OH]

20 hours ago, Frobby said:

 

I think wildcard has not learned that a player can be good/decent at one aspect of the game, and yet be so terrible at the other aspects of the game that he is a bad player overall.

And by the way, though I’ve been one of the people saying that my eyes don’t agree with the advanced metrics’ assessment of Martin’s defense, let’s not make him out to be the next Mark Belanger, or even the next JJ Hardy.   He’s just arguably better than the awful defensive SS that the advanced metrics make him out to be.    

Agreed on the defense, but the good news is that over his last 17 games (40 PAs) Martin is slashing .361/.425/.444/.869.  Now part of this is that Hyde has been picking and choosing his match ups and a .448 BABIP, but at least there is a glimmer of hope for his bat of late.

Still, until we can get better infield defensive metrics, I'm still going to think that Martin is an average defensive major league SS.

 

[wildcard]

53 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Agreed on the defense, but the good news is that over his last 17 games (40 PAs) Martin is slashing .361/.425/.444/.869.  Now part of this is that Hyde has been picking and choosing his match ups and a .448 BABIP, but at least there is a glimmer of hope for his bat of late.

Still, until we can get better infield defensive metrics, I'm still going to think that Martin is an average defensive major league SS.

 

If the average defensive major league SS has good range, is pretty consistent, has a good arm and makes good decisions,  I am fine with that.  That is what I see from Martin.   If he has those skills and  still  half the leagues SS are better that him defensively,   I can live with that.

[Camden_yardbird]

It is worth noting that over the last 2 weeks Martin is batting .270 with a  .360 OBP.  Two weeks is a SSS, but worth noting.

[esmd]

I was surprised to see that he was the worst player on the team by WAR, even worse than Davis.  But shoot, keep running him out there for the rest of the season.  Nothing to lose at this point.  He should probably be at Norfolk next year, though.

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, esmd said:

I was surprised to see that he was the worst player on the team by WAR, even worse than Davis.  But shoot, keep running him out there for the rest of the season.  Nothing to lose at this point.  He should probably be at Norfolk next year, though.

It's one of the reasons I don't fully trust WAR.  I mean, yeah, both are bad players, both can't hit a lick.  But c'mon, Martin's defense (we can debate how good that defense is, and I know @Frobbywill be here with the metrics soon) at a premium position has to elevate him over Davis.  Even if we're not going by advanced defensive metrics, simply put that the shortstop position provides more value from a straight up ability of having more putouts instead of first base...I dunno, it just doesn't make sense.  And don't get it twisted, I'm not saying I think Richie Martin is a WAR-God or something...but Davis?  DAVIS!?!!?!??!?! Come on man!!! 

[weams]

40 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

It's one of the reasons I don't fully trust WAR.  I mean, yeah, both are bad players, both can't hit a lick.  But c'mon, Martin's defense (we can debate how good that defense is, and I know @Frobbywill be here with the metrics soon) at a premium position has to elevate him over Davis.  Even if we're not going by advanced defensive metrics, simply put that the shortstop position provides more value from a straight up ability of having more putouts instead of first base...I dunno, it just doesn't make sense.  And don't get it twisted, I'm not saying I think Richie Martin is a WAR-God or something...but Davis?  DAVIS!?!!?!??!?! Come on man!!! 

The defensive metrics that are used are flawed in a way that they are useless as data. Watching the defense and counting the offense is really the only way to be currently correct.  And watching is very flawed too. 

[Redskins Rick]

2 minutes ago, weams said:

The defensive metrics that are used are flawed in a way that they are useless as data. Watching the defense and counting the offense is really the only way to be currently correct.  And watching is very flawed too. 

Its not like there are a dozen better prospects behind him, that he is blocking, either.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, weams said:

The defensive metrics that are used are flawed in a way that they are useless as data. Watching the defense and counting the offense is really the only way to be currently correct.  And watching is very flawed too. 

I feel compelled to once again believe that we shouldn't give up and throw out all defensive metrics because of feelings.  I don't see any reason we should trust subjective and inconsistent observation over what metrics we have.

The argument over the last handful of posts is that Chris Davis is obviously worse in his defensive contributions than Richie Martin.  Why?  Because it feels like that should be true.  And if feelings contradict data, run with the feelings because we know the data is imperfect.  I won't do that.  I refuse.

[weams]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I feel compelled to once again believe that we shouldn't give up and throw out all defensive metrics because of feelings.  I don't see any reason we should trust subjective and inconsistent observation over what metrics we have.

The argument over the last handful of posts is that Chris Davis is obviously worse in his defensive contributions than Richie Martin.  Why?  Because it feels like that should be true.  And if feelings contradict data, run with the feelings because we know the data is imperfect.  I won't do that.  I refuse.

But what if it really isn’t data. What if it is numbers guessed by guys who sit in the stands and are not truly expert? Bring on the data. I welcome it. 

[LookinUp]

2 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The argument over the last handful of posts is that Chris Davis is obviously worse in his defensive contributions than Richie Martin.  Why?  Because it feels like that should be true.  And if feelings contradict data, run with the feelings because we know the data is imperfect.  I won't do that.  I refuse.

I think it's because people picture Chris Davis playing SS and say Martin is obviously better. It's the old defensive adjustment issue in WAR again. Not exactly easily intuitive. 

Davis' OPS is .031 higher than Martin's. Maybe if Martin played 1B he'd be more valuable than Davis. It's hard to say. I'm pretty certain that if Davis played SS, he'd be less valuable than Martin, lol.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, LookinUp said:

I think it's because people picture Chris Davis playing SS and say Martin is obviously better. It's the old defensive adjustment issue in WAR again. Not exactly easily intuitive. 

Davis' OPS is .031 higher than Martin's. Maybe if Martin played 1B he'd be more valuable than Davis. It's hard to say. I'm pretty certain that if Davis played SS, he'd be less valuable than Martin, lol.

I think Martin would be more valuable than Davis as a first baseman, and it's nearly certain that Davis would be a far worse shortstop than Martin.  But in a normal world you'd never try either of those things.  It's only in Orioles bizarro-world that we're debating whether our .570 OPSing 1B is slightly less terrible than our .550 OPSing SS.

We should take a step back and stop judging all metrics based on the weird edge cases of teams competing for the #1 draft pick.  Are both Martin and Davis far below replacement and worse than any competitive team would put up with?  Sure, and that's just what WAR says.  Single examples of things that feel slightly askew in strange circumstances don't mean we should fall back on tea leaves and chicken entrails.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think Martin would be more valuable than Davis as a first baseman, and it's nearly certain that Davis would be a far worse shortstop than Martin.  But in a normal world you'd never try either of those things.  It's only in Orioles bizarro-world that we're debating whether our .570 OPSing 1B is slightly less terrible than our .550 OPSing SS.

We should take a step back and stop judging all metrics based on the weird edge cases of teams competing for the #1 draft pick.  Are both Martin and Davis far below replacement and worse than any competitive team would put up with?  Sure, and that's just what WAR says.  Single examples of things that feel slightly askew in strange circumstances don't mean we should fall back on tea leaves and chicken entrails.

We’ve discussed this to death.   I’ve been following the defensive metrics since they first started publishing them.   The number of times they strike me as intuitively wrong has decreased significantly over the years.    I’m not sure if that’s because the stats have gotten better, or whether I’ve simply become more accepting of what those stats say.   But also, the number of times that the advanced stats disagree drastically about a player has decreased significantly, so that gives me more confidence.    And of course, I accept that my intuition about a player may be off base, too.    

Having said all that, Martin is a guy who seems much better than these stats suggest.   I don’t mean to say he’s a gold glover, but he’s far from the hack these stats make him out to be, IMO.

 

[Ruzious]

6 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I feel compelled to once again believe that we shouldn't give up and throw out all defensive metrics because of feelings.  I don't see any reason we should trust subjective and inconsistent observation over what metrics we have.

The argument over the last handful of posts is that Chris Davis is obviously worse in his defensive contributions than Richie Martin.  Why?  Because it feels like that should be true.  And if feelings contradict data, run with the feelings because we know the data is imperfect.  I won't do that.  I refuse.

To each his own, but trusting what I see is part of the enjoyment of watching the games.  

[SilverRocket]

7 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I feel compelled to once again believe that we shouldn't give up and throw out all defensive metrics because of feelings.  I don't see any reason we should trust subjective and inconsistent observation over what metrics we have.

Has dWAR/UZR/DRS changed a lot over the years to account for better data, defensive positioning, etc? I'm just skeptical of 10-year-old methods being used in today's game of infielders positioned in the outfield grass all the time.

[DrungoHazewood]

13 hours ago, Ruzious said:

To each his own, but trusting what I see is part of the enjoyment of watching the games.  

Long, long ago I made peace with the idea that my eyes will fool me.  I fully understand that the way I watch a game in no way is set up to determine tiny differences in the impact of fielding prowess among all the players in the majors.  The difference between Richie Martin and Elvis Andrus is a run every eight or 10 games.  It is impossible to tell that just by casual observation and feel.