Tex or AJ

[Mike B]

Let's also keep in mind that AJ can only help us one out of every five games, while Tex could make an impact every night.

Only if you do not realize that effective starting pitching has the trickle down effect on the entire team. Guthrie, And two solid starters go 7 + innings 8 out of 10. Your BP stays fresh and healthy longer, hopefully your young pitchers learn from them and the entire team stays up beat.

I guess my point of difference is that if you added Tex to this years Orioles would we have won more than 75 games. I think it would have been highly doubtful because our pitching stunk.

[Sports Guy]

[/b]

I could not diagree more. I will give you the argument that Tex would improve us 7 to 9 games. That would be true if Huff, Nick, BRob etc duplicated what they did this year. That takes us to a robust 77 games. Still lousy. He would not stop the September collapse. Put Tex in the lineup this past September, do you think we would win many more games. Two Quality pitchers improves the rotation, allows the young guys to grow and also stabalizes the BP by allowing guys like Liz to pitch there and also stops the exhausting of the pen early in the year. IMO Tex does not do any of that.

Bottom line I think we are arguing over nothing. If the Yankees want him we lose. Boras will take every possible $$$. They have the new stadium, room cleared on the massive payroll and a spot waiting at 1B. Our hope is that the Yankees go hog wild on Sheets/Sabathia and decide they want to stick it to the Red Sox and take Manny. If all that plays out, I could see them bypassing Tex and signing Nomar to play 1B. My gut tells me they pursue Tex and we wind up with a couple of vet pitchers and some one like Nomar to replace Millar. or possibly a splash and sign Dunn which worries me.

I am not trying to criticize your or SG thoughts. I would be excited as anyone to watch a Tex Presser on MASN but the pitching must be addressed as a priority and Randy Wolfe Types are not enough. We need a solid vet (2) to improve.

Well, I really can't disagree with your thoughts anymore than I already do but that has been addressed.

Answer me this...AJ Burnett...5/80 deal..Yes or no??

[Mike B]

Well, I really can't disagree with your thoughts anymore than I already do but that has been addressed.

Answer me this...AJ Burnett...5/80 deal..Yes or no??

I respect your passion for the Orioles and your obvious love of the game we will just agree to disagree.

As for your question, I would say no and I am sure that will surprise you. My point was through the whole thread is that we need to spend $$$ on pitching. I would hold my nose and offer AJ something around 4/60 and if that fails push for a Lowe 3/39. Then I would turn my attention to finding another starter. I hope we are both right and we get pitching and Tex. As I said earlier that would be the perfect storm. ( Save a few $$ for a real SS too)

I like you have tired of seeing the Orioles lose consistently we just disagree on the method to escape the cellar.

[Sports Guy]

I respect your passion for the Orioles and your obvious love of the game we will just agree to disagree.

As for your question, I would say no and I am sure that will surprise you. My point was through the whole thread is that we need to spend $$$ on pitching. I would hold my nose and offer AJ something around 4/60 and if that fails push for a Lowe 3/39. Then I would turn my attention to finding another starter. I hope we are both right and we get pitching and Tex. As I said earlier that would be the perfect storm. ( Save a few $$ for a real SS too)

I like you have tired of seeing the Orioles lose consistently we just disagree on the method to escape the cellar.

Well, neither of those contracts are likely to get those players...so, whats next?

[Mike B]

Well, neither of those contracts are likely to get those players...so, whats next?

You may be right about the AJ contract but I think 3/39 will be in the ballpark for Lowe. I really do not think Sheets or CC will be within the Orioles, so if neither would go for the deals I mentioned I would ppony up for one of them because IMO a top veteran starter is a must have.

Now let me turn things aroung. How high would you go for Tex?? I think Boras will send to the highest bidder, and if the Yankees get involved I think we will see something like 8 years/180 Million, with a player opt out( a Boras trademark) around year 5. Would you spend that much on Tex, especially if it means that would more than likely be the extent of the free agent spending for this off season?

[Old#5fan]

Yea..I continued to be amazed by how many people continue to underestimate how good Tex really is.

Unless he can drive in six or more runs a game it doesn't matter with the absolute wretched starting pitching they sorrily trot out there year after year (other than Guthrie). I am truly amazed at how many don't get how bad the pitching is which renders the offense essentially a non-factor in too many games no matter what they do unless scoring double digit runs.

[Old#5fan]

It has nothing to do with underestimating Tex and it comes to need. Our hitting was decent to good. Our pitching was god awful especially late when injuries and fatique crushed us. IF you can not pitch you can not win.

Absolutely true. BTW, Tex really got the Angels far in post season! :rolleyes:Its all about the pitching fellows!

[Old#5fan]

The Orioles finished 8th in the league in runs scored and 8th in the league in OPS+. While the pitching was far worse (13th in runs allowed, and 13th in ERA+, as well as 14th in K, BB, and HR), this team will not be competitive until it makes significant upgrades to both its offense and defense. Teixeira is likely to give us far more of an upgrade in run scoring than will Burnett in run prevention.

Again, Tex would improve us by a half dozen wins, conservatively, and maybe by 8 or 9 wins. That is an immense upgrade. If the Orioles forgo signing Tex and get two pitchers, $15M on Burnett and $10M on a Lohse-type pitcher does not upgrade the team by as much as $20M on Tex.

Uh, I am not a math guru but the Orioles were like about 28 games behind the Rays. Spending all that money on Tex even if what you espouse is true (he adds 8 wins) is meaningless. Furthermore, I highly doubt with the wretched starting pitching that two Texes would elevate the Orioles out of the cellar in the division. They need starting pitching and in multiples.

[Old#5fan]

[/b]

I could not diagree more. I will give you the argument that Tex would improve us 7 to 9 games. That would be true if Huff, Nick, BRob etc duplicated what they did this year. That takes us to a robust 77 games. Still lousy. He would not stop the September collapse. Put Tex in the lineup this past September, do you think we would win many more games. Two Quality pitchers improves the rotation, allows the young guys to grow and also stabalizes the BP by allowing guys like Liz to pitch there and also stops the exhausting of the pen early in the year. IMO Tex does not do any of that.

Bottom line I think we are arguing over nothing. If the Yankees want him we lose. Boras will take every possible $$$. They have the new stadium, room cleared on the massive payroll and a spot waiting at 1B. Our hope is that the Yankees go hog wild on Sheets/Sabathia and decide they want to stick it to the Red Sox and take Manny. If all that plays out, I could see them bypassing Tex and signing Nomar to play 1B. My gut tells me they pursue Tex and we wind up with a couple of vet pitchers and some one like Nomar to replace Millar. or possibly a splash and sign Dunn which worries me.

I am not trying to criticize your or SG thoughts. I would be excited as anyone to watch a Tex Presser on MASN but the pitching must be addressed as a priority and Randy Wolfe Types are not enough. We need a solid vet (2) to improve.

You are absolutely a million times right on this over those who are espousing Tex over pitching. Their argument is baseless and beyond pointless in going after hitting until a massive and I mean MASSIVE improvement in the starting pitching takes place. Otherwise, it is just a huge waste of money that could be better spent somewhere/somehow in upgrading the pitching which anyone should know is the biggest problem on the team by leaps and bounds and has been historically for quite a while (years).

[Old#5fan]

Let's also keep in mind that AJ can only help us one out of every five games, while Tex could make an impact every night.

They realistically need three AJ's but one is at least a starting point.

[Frobby]

You are absolutely a million times right on this over those who are espousing Tex over pitching. Their argument is baseless and beyond pointless in going after hitting until a massive and I mean MASSIVE improvement in the starting pitching takes place. Otherwise, it is just a huge waste of money that could be better spent somewhere/somehow in upgrading the pitching which anyone should know is the biggest problem on the team by leaps and bounds and has been historically for quite a while (years).

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it depends a lot on what you think of the Orioles' minor league pitching. If you think we are loaded with guys who will be like Shields, Kazmir, Lester etc. in 2-3 years, but almost bereft of minor league bats, then it makes sense to go get a guy like Tex and rely on internal development for pitchers.

Personally I think we need to get a couple of solid starters to bridge the gap before the minor leaguers are ready and to hedge against the chance that they aren't as good as cracked up to be. But I wouldn't mind getting Tex, too.

[JTrea81]

You are absolutely a million times right on this over those who are espousing Tex over pitching. Their argument is baseless and beyond pointless in going after hitting until a massive and I mean MASSIVE improvement in the starting pitching takes place. Otherwise, it is just a huge waste of money that could be better spent somewhere/somehow in upgrading the pitching which anyone should know is the biggest problem on the team by leaps and bounds and has been historically for quite a while (years).

Pitching is a strength in the minors. Scouts and other analysts have said we are loaded with starting pitching.

We have no hitting prospects in the minor leagues in the same stratosphere as Tex after Wieters.

Just look at Toronto, and you'll see pitching isn't everything. You've got to have an offense and right now, we need a whole new infield in 2010 to go with Wieters.

Tex is a good start to that infield and he allows you to sacrifice some offense at the other positions if need be.

[Sports Guy]

You are absolutely a million times right on this over those who are espousing Tex over pitching. Their argument is baseless and beyond pointless in going after hitting until a massive and I mean MASSIVE improvement in the starting pitching takes place. Otherwise, it is just a huge waste of money that could be better spent somewhere/somehow in upgrading the pitching which anyone should know is the biggest problem on the team by leaps and bounds and has been historically for quite a while (years).

Just because you don't understand the argument and don't recognize the talent we have in the minors, pitching wise, doesn;t mean it is a pointless and baseless argument.

It just means you continue to show this board your total ignorance about the game and the Orioles organization.

[Sports Guy]

BTW, doesn't improving the defense also improve the pitching?

[ChaosLex]

I can't believe this is even being debated, but so be it. If you could sign only one of the above this offseason, who would it be?