How Rutschman steals strikes

[DrungoHazewood]

36 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

No, I'm talking about taking the framing specialist backup catcher and putting him into games in save situations. 

If framing is as impactful as some groups would like us to think it would make sense to bring in the superior framer in high leverage situations.

I think what you mean is if framing is as impactful as the most extreme outliers say, prior to regressing to true talent levels.

Hey, I don't like framing either.  But the available data says it has some moderate impact, at least until they fix that part of the game.

[Frobby]

41 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

No, I'm talking about taking the framing specialist backup catcher and putting him into games in save situations. 

If framing is as impactful as some groups would like us to think it would make sense to bring in the superior framer in high leverage situations.

It seems to me this would likely be counterproductive.    If I’m an umpire and I see they are bringing some catcher in late in the game to try to steal some strikes, I’m going to go out of my way not to give that catcher any benefit of the doubt.    So, what that catcher might be able to get away with in a 9 inning game might be harder to achieve in shorter appearances where the umpire knows he’s in there for that purpose.   

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It seems to me this would likely be counterproductive.    If I’m an umpire and I see they are bringing some catcher in late in the game to try to steal some strikes, I’m going to go out of my way not to give that catcher any benefit of the doubt.    So, what that catcher might be able to get away with in a 9 inning game might be harder to achieve in shorter appearances where the umpire knows he’s in there for that purpose.   

So you would call pitches that you think are strikes balls simply out of fear you are being deceived?  Seems less than ethical. 

 

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

So you would call pitches that you think are strikes balls simply out of fear you are being deceived?  Seems less than ethical. 

 

No, I wouldn’t put it that way.   Let’s just say I’d be extra vigilant about what the catcher was doing in that situation.    

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

No, I wouldn’t put it that way.   Let’s just say I’d be extra vigilant about what the catcher was doing in that situation.    

Shouldn't you be that extra level of vigilant all the time? 

[Aristotelian]

I thought Caleb Joseph was regarded as a plus framer. He was OK as a backup catcher but definitely needed to hit to stay in the big leagues. 

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I thought Caleb Joseph was regarded as a plus framer. He was OK as a backup catcher but definitely needed to hit to stay in the big leagues. 

First off he played in the majors last season.

Secondly he had a ML job the year after having a 413 OPS and 0 RBI in 49 games.

 

[Aristotelian]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

First off he played in the majors last season.

Secondly he had a ML job the year after having a 413 OPS and 0 RBI in 49 games.

 

Fair enough. He is hanging on by a thread. I doubt he continues to play MLB if all he can do is frame pitches and nothing else. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

Fair enough. He is hanging on by a thread. I doubt he continues to play MLB if all he can do is frame pitches and nothing else. 

He's 35.  Most guys don't hang on that long.

[Frobby]

26 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Shouldn't you be that extra level of vigilant all the time? 

Sure, but that’s not human nature.   

[Aristotelian]

20 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

He's 35.  Most guys don't hang on that long.

I really need to go back to ignoring your posts. 

[Frobby]

Here’s a Fangraphs list of cumulative Framing Runs from 2010-20.   Caleb Joseph fares well, coming in 30th with 22.1 framing runs despite having only played 3278 innings behind the plate in that period (which ranks 45th).
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=200&type=1&season=2020&month=0&season1=2010&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2010-01-01&enddate=2020-12-31&sort=19,d.  Matt Wieters ranks 7th in innings caught and had -16.8 framing runs.   Per this list, Yasmani Grandal was best (+138) in cumulative total and Kurt Suzuki worst (-95).   Obviously, on a per-inning basis others probably topped them.    

[DrungoHazewood]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

He's 35.  Most guys don't hang on that long.

There's really no shortage in guys who're backup catchers into their mid-to-late 30s, or longer.  These are the leaders in most seasons with less than 100 games played, 80%+ at catcher:

                                                         
Rk                  Name Yrs From   To                Age
1           Val Picinich  18 1916 1933 19-36 Ind. Seasons
2             Tom Prince  17 1987 2003 22-38 Ind. Seasons
3           Bob OFarrell  17 1915 1935 18-38 Ind. Seasons
4          Buck Martinez  16 1969 1986 20-37 Ind. Seasons
5             Pop Snyder  16 1873 1890 18-35 Ind. Seasons
6            Jeff Mathis  15 2006 2020 23-37 Ind. Seasons
7           Sandy Alomar  15 1989 2007 23-41 Ind. Seasons
8           Rick Dempsey  15 1969 1992 19-42 Ind. Seasons
9      Malachi Kittridge  15 1890 1906 20-36 Ind. Seasons
10        Deacon McGuire  15 1884 1912 20-48 Ind. Seasons
11          Chief Zimmer  15 1886 1903 25-42 Ind. Seasons
12            David Ross  14 2002 2016 25-39 Ind. Seasons
13           Jose Molina  14 1999 2014 24-39 Ind. Seasons
14            Todd Pratt  14 1992 2006 25-39 Ind. Seasons
15        Kelly Stinnett  14 1994 2007 24-37 Ind. Seasons
16          Chad Kreuter  14 1988 2003 23-38 Ind. Seasons
17           Rick Cerone  14 1975 1992 21-38 Ind. Seasons
18        Charlie OBrien  14 1985 2000 25-40 Ind. Seasons
19            Lou Criger  14 1897 1912 25-40 Ind. Seasons
20      Wilbert Robinson  14 1887 1902 23-38 Ind. Seasons
21          Ramon Castro  13 1999 2011 23-35 Ind. Seasons
22          Henry Blanco  13 1999 2013 27-41 Ind. Seasons
23         Mike Difelice  13 1996 2008 27-39 Ind. Seasons
24           Mark Parent  13 1986 1998 24-36 Ind. Seasons
25          Junior Ortiz  13 1982 1994 22-34 Ind. Seasons
26             Jeff Reed  13 1984 2000 21-37 Ind. Seasons
27            Duffy Dyer  13 1968 1981 22-35 Ind. Seasons
28              Del Rice  13 1945 1961 22-38 Ind. Seasons
29        Rollie Hemsley  13 1928 1947 21-40 Ind. Seasons
30           Glenn Myatt  13 1921 1936 23-38 Ind. Seasons
31          Silver Flint  13 1875 1889 19-33 Ind. Seasons
32          Mike Redmond  12 1998 2010 27-39 Ind. Seasons
33          Gary Bennett  12 1996 2008 24-36 Ind. Seasons
34             Paul Bako  12 1998 2009 26-37 Ind. Seasons
35     Humberto Quintero  12 2003 2014 23-34 Ind. Seasons
36        Doug Mirabelli  12 1996 2007 25-36 Ind. Seasons
37      Alberto Castillo  12 1995 2007 25-37 Ind. Seasons
38           Don Slaught  12 1982 1997 23-38 Ind. Seasons
39             Marc Hill  12 1973 1986 21-34 Ind. Seasons
40            Alan Ashby  12 1973 1989 21-37 Ind. Seasons
41           Larry Haney  12 1966 1978 23-35 Ind. Seasons
42      Andy Etchebarren  12 1962 1978 19-35 Ind. Seasons
43      Clyde McCullough  12 1940 1956 23-39 Ind. Seasons
44        Hobie Landrith  12 1950 1963 20-33 Ind. Seasons
45             Bob Swift  12 1941 1953 26-38 Ind. Seasons
46              Ken ODea  12 1935 1946 22-33 Ind. Seasons
47        Gene Desautels  12 1930 1946 23-39 Ind. Seasons
48          Ray Hayworth  12 1926 1945 22-41 Ind. Seasons
49           Zack Taylor  12 1920 1935 21-36 Ind. Seasons
50            Ivey Wingo  12 1911 1929 20-38 Ind. Seasons
51           Otto Miller  12 1910 1922 21-33 Ind. Seasons
52        Eddie Ainsmith  12 1910 1924 20-34 Ind. Seasons
53           Jack Warner  12 1895 1908 22-35 Ind. Seasons
54        Billy Sullivan  12 1899 1916 24-41 Ind. Seasons
55          Ed McFarland  12 1896 1908 22-34 Ind. Seasons
56           Doc Bushong  12 1875 1890 18-33 Ind. Seasons
57         Jack Clements  12 1886 1899 21-34 Ind. Seasons
58      Yorvit Torrealba  11 2001 2013 22-34 Ind. Seasons
59            Wil Nieves  11 2002 2014 24-36 Ind. Seasons
60          Gerald Laird  11 2003 2015 23-35 Ind. Seasons
61          Corky Miller  11 2001 2013 25-37 Ind. Seasons
62            Gregg Zaun  11 1995 2010 24-39 Ind. Seasons
63         Lenny Webster  11 1989 2000 24-35 Ind. Seasons
64            Greg Myers  11 1987 2005 21-39 Ind. Seasons
65            Sal Fasano  11 1996 2008 24-36 Ind. Seasons
66           Raul Chavez  11 1996 2009 23-36 Ind. Seasons
67            Steve Lake  11 1983 1993 26-36 Ind. Seasons
68             Phil Roof  11 1961 1977 20-36 Ind. Seasons
69            Ron Hodges  11 1973 1984 24-35 Ind. Seasons
70            Bill Fahey  11 1971 1983 21-33 Ind. Seasons
71          Johnny Oates  11 1970 1981 24-35 Ind. Seasons
72           Rube Walker  11 1948 1958 22-32 Ind. Seasons
73          Joe Ginsberg  11 1948 1962 21-35 Ind. Seasons
74              Les Moss  11 1946 1957 21-32 Ind. Seasons
75              Al Evans  11 1939 1951 22-34 Ind. Seasons
76              Moe Berg  11 1928 1939 26-37 Ind. Seasons
77         Jimmie Wilson  11 1923 1940 22-39 Ind. Seasons
78           Ray Mueller  11 1935 1951 23-39 Ind. Seasons
79         Arndt Jorgens  11 1929 1939 24-34 Ind. Seasons
80           Gus Mancuso  11 1928 1945 22-39 Ind. Seasons
81         Mike Gonzalez  11 1912 1932 21-41 Ind. Seasons
82          Clyde Manion  11 1920 1934 23-37 Ind. Seasons
83            Hank Gowdy  11 1913 1930 23-40 Ind. Seasons
84         Oscar Stanage  11 1906 1925 23-42 Ind. Seasons
85          Hank DeBerry  11 1916 1930 21-35 Ind. Seasons
86            Muddy Ruel  11 1915 1934 19-38 Ind. Seasons
87         Josh Billings  11 1913 1923 21-31 Ind. Seasons
88            Art Wilson  11 1909 1921 23-35 Ind. Seasons
89           Tom Needham  11 1904 1914 25-35 Ind. Seasons
90            Mike Kahoe  11 1895 1909 21-35 Ind. Seasons
91             Con Daily  11 1885 1896 20-31 Ind. Seasons
92       Charlie Bennett  11 1880 1893 25-38 Ind. Seasons
93           Drew Butera  10 2010 2020 26-36 Ind. Seasons
94           Rene Rivera  10 2004 2020 20-36 Ind. Seasons
95          Ryan Hanigan  10 2007 2017 26-36 Ind. Seasons
96    Francisco Cervelli  10 2008 2020 22-34 Ind. Seasons
97          Bobby Wilson  10 2008 2019 25-36 Ind. Seasons
98          Chad Moeller  10 2000 2010 25-35 Ind. Seasons
99            Koyie Hill  10 2004 2014 25-35 Ind. Seasons
100        Chris Stewart  10 2006 2018 24-36 Ind. Seasons

[DrungoHazewood]

It's probably easier to last forever at catcher than anywhere else, since a lot of teams don't care if their backup catcher OPSes .580, and the defensive metrics for catchers are hard to gauge so stories and legends hold more weight.

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

It's probably easier to last forever at catcher than anywhere else, since a lot of teams don't care if their backup catcher OPSes .580, and the defensive metrics for catchers are hard to gauge so stories and legends hold more weight.

My mistake in speaking about players in general.

But as you said, they don't really have to hit.