Elias prioritizes player development over winning in the majors

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I don't know where your getting this. Bradish has potential but so do Lowther, Wells, Zimmerman, and Baumann. On the OH prospect list, Lowther is 15, Bradish is 17, Baumann is 18. Both Wells and Zimmerman have graduated off the prospect list but have some MLB success. We don't even know who the final rotation is going to be, but the fact that it's not Bradish doesn't tell me anything.

Ok

[Tony-OH]

33 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Tony, if you don’t think a better team could have been put on the field, you either completely overrate the team we have or you think Elias is terrible at his job.  You also believe in yourself an evaluator of talent and I shouldn’t have to go through the roster player by player to say who should and shouldn’t be here.

We should have at least 2 better starters(and no lyles), at least 2 better guys in the pen and a different left side of the IF, with Urias playing everyday at second.  
 

While I think Mancini should be traded, obviously he is good at DH and RM is fine at 1st and the OF is good to go.  Adley should be up pretty much immediately and maybe he would have been here if not for the injury.

But it’s the pitching staff and left side of the IF that should have been improved upon. 

And btw, KG had a -.6 WAR in 2021 according to FG and he has a zero WAR prior to 2021 in the majors.  His MiL numbers are also pretty underwhelming at a quick glance and yet you are pointing to a SSS at the end of last year.  When did you become wildcard?

I agree that he’s fine defensively but the idea that he is penciled in to get 400+ at bats is horrible.

You keep saying, so and so will be up..give them time.  I tend to agree they will.  But when?  And what type of chance will they get?  How long will the rope be?  Until I see them consistently writing these guys on the lineup card and consistently sending them out to the mound, I’m skeptical.

And again this is also about where they are as an organization being 4 years into this.  We should not have so much mediocrity still getting at bats and innings pitched.   I will say it does seem like it’s better this year than last year, so I’m at least encouraged by that and again, I’m one of the few on here who believes they can contend for a playoff spot in 2023.  If I didn’t believe in Elias or the talent this organization has amassed, I wouldn’t believe that.

But they should be doing more now with this team and they failed to do so. 

You failed to answer the question I asked, who are the non MLB players that will open on the 28-man roster? 

We don't need to go back and forth because I understand your point that you think they should be better while rebuilding. The only thing I can say is I feel better about the future of this team then anytime since oh, I don't know, 1983, and I was kid back then and had no idea about drafting, developing or signing international players. 

As I've said, this is a transition year where the team will try to win, but will evaluate their upper prospects at the major leagues level, particularly their young pitching. If we go into next season and I don't think we are at least a possible contender and the team still hasn't made any major trades or signings, then I'll be voicing my concerns. 

I have zero issues with how the team is made up this season and although I too think the left side of the infield, particularly if Urias is starting at 2B, needs to be improved, I see those pieces in the system. 

As for the pitching staff, IF, Lyles improvement in his slider was for real then he's fine as a one year stop gap and if I finally know the future major league roles of Zimmermann, Lowther, T. Wells, Kremer, Akin, Baumann and Bradish after this season, I'll consider that a success.

It also gives the top prospects (outside of Rutschman and Rodriguez who I think will be in the majors this year) another year to play at higher levels which will hopefully give Elias more trade bait where he has redundancy in order to build that competitive team at the major league level from 2023 onward.

 

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Well Bradish has a higher ceiling but even getting past that, I think he’s valuing the service time over everything else and Bradish isn’t the type of prospect you play the service time game with.

I’m not sure Elias is playing service time games with Bradish.  But let’s assume he is.   I’m not sure you can always tell which prospects are the ones to play service time games with.   I mean, right now I wish John Means had 2.165 years of service instead of 3.007.   I wouldn’t have guessed that before the 2019 season was played.  

[Just Regular]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m not sure Elias is playing service time games with Bradish.  But let’s assume he is.   I’m not sure you can always tell which prospects are the ones to play service time games with.   I mean, right now I wish John Means had 2.165 years of service instead of 3.007.   I wouldn’t have guessed that before the 2019 season was played.  

He never would have been called up in 2018 if he was a better prospect

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

He never would have been called up in 2018 if he was a better prospect

Why not?  What did Dan have to lose?

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

He never would have been called up in 2018 if he was a better prospect

Ironically, that’s a true statement.  

[Just Regular]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why not?  What did Dan have to lose?

Nada.   It also seems like Means' 7th to last day of season debut at the Duquette/Buck death rattle might have been the last roster move they did.   

 

[Jammer7]

7 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

If you put Bradish in the rotation, who do you remove? Likely Zimmerman or Lowther, who also need experience. I probably have Bradish slightly higher than Lowther but I am fine with him getting the first shot. I would not stash Bradish in the bullpen, I think he is better off starting in AAA.

Bradish is a #2-3 starter. A long term fixture in the rotation. Lowther and Zimm may or may not be back end guys and their projected value is nowhere near that of Bradish. Bradish is ready now, and listening to Elias’ comments makes me think he thinks he is too. Going to AAA is not to stash him, but to spin him up to go starter innings.

Is Elias is gaming his service time? I suspect so, but whatever. Grayson and DL are not ready yet for various reasons, but Bradish  will be up soon. I agree he need to keep starting and building innings. I think he could do it in Baltimore. So be it. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

Bradish is a #2-3 starter. A long term fixture in the rotation. Lowther and Zimm may or may not be back end guys and their projected value is nowhere near that of Bradish. Bradish is ready now, and listening to Elias’ comments makes me think he thinks he is too. Going to AAA is not to stash him, but to spin him up to go starter innings.

Is Elias is gaming his service time? I suspect so, but whatever. Grayson and DL are not ready yet for various reasons, but Bradish  will be up soon. I agree he need to keep starting and building innings. I think he could do it in Baltimore. So be it. 

Why is Grayson not ready?

Other than service time considerations.

Same for Hall really.  If this was a contending club I could easily see Hall put into the bullpen with the idea of having him switch to starting in 2023.

[Jammer7]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Why is Grayson not ready?

Other than service time considerations.

Same for Hall really.  If this was a contending club I could easily see Hall put into the bullpen with the idea of having him switch to starting in 2023.

I think there is value in AAA innings. Neither Grayson nor DL has any yet. They may not need more than a few months, but that time is important. Bradish had 86 AAA innings in 2021.

If we actually had a major league rotation, I would be fine with both young guys in a pen role before becoming starters in a year or two. As it is, these guys can be TOR starters. They need to be developed correctly. That takes time, reaching benchmarks. 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

I think there is value in AAA innings. Neither Grayson nor DL has any yet. They may not need more than a few months, but that time is important. Bradish had 86 AAA innings in 2021.

If we actually had a major league rotation, I would be fine with both young guys in a pen role before becoming starters in a year or two. As it is, these guys can be TOR starters. They need to be developed correctly. That takes time, reaching benchmarks. 

I don't think there is anything that a guy like DL or Grayson can learn at AAA that they can't learn in the majors.  I think adversity is a better teacher than dominance.

 

I also think the reaching benchmarks is code for gaming service time.  Lots of TOR guys skip entire levels.

Jose Fernandez for instance was a TOR guy, a HS guy.

What benchmarks did he reach?

[owknows]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think there is anything that a guy like DL or Grayson can learn at AAA that they can't learn in the majors.  I think adversity is a better teacher than dominance.

I'm pretty sure you understand the damage to the psyche that getting crushed over and over again causes.

 

[Jammer7]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think there is anything that a guy like DL or Grayson can learn at AAA that they can't learn in the majors.  I think adversity is a better teacher than dominance.

Let them build innings in a more controllable environment, at least that is the theory. It’s about their long term health and success. I guess we’ll see if they are right. I think they are. 

[Can_of_corn]

15 minutes ago, owknows said:

I'm pretty sure you understand the damage to the psyche that getting crushed over and over again causes.

 

Huh?

If Grayson or Hall gets crushed over and over again at this point a couple months at AAA isn't going to turn them into TOR starters.

On the other hand Roy Halladay put up a 10.64 ERA as a 23 year old, his psyche recovered.

[Going Underground]

27 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think there is anything that a guy like DL or Grayson can learn at AAA that they can't learn in the majors.  I think adversity is a better teacher than dominance.

 

I also think the reaching benchmarks is code for gaming service time.  Lots of TOR guys skip entire levels.

Jose Fernandez for instance was a TOR guy, a HS guy.

What benchmarks did he reach?

When Max Scherzer was 24, he was in his first full year in the rotation of the Arizona Diamondbacks. He lost more than he won. He gave up nine runs in one start and eight in two others. He flashed the brilliance to come. He didn’t bring it consistently