MASN loses in NY Court of Appeals

[spleen1015]

The fact that they're supposed to negotiate rights fees every 5 years or whatever means this issue is never going to go away. They won't agree, ever, and every new period will be argued over in court. This whole set up is beyond asinine. 

[Hallas]

59 minutes ago, spleen1015 said:

The fact that they're supposed to negotiate rights fees every 5 years or whatever means this issue is never going to go away. They won't agree, ever, and every new period will be argued over in court. This whole set up is beyond asinine. 

 

I'm wondering how they can ever come to a fair agreement here.  The Nationals probably are incentivized toward driving MASN out of business so they can negotiate a rights deal with anyone, and the fee structure is such that MASN is always going to be paying an inflated price to the O's because the negotiations with the Nationals, a much larger and richer market, determines the O's rights fees.

[TradeAngelos]

Orioles - "MASN Makes no money!"

Courts - "You are liars, pay up". 

Who could have ever foreseen this outcome? Get ready for another decade of excuses. If you thought all the other BS was just that, just wait til this court case gets brought up in every single interview when pressed about finances. Well with the MASN case.......FOREVER. 

And what does MASN have to do with the Orioles ability to stay in Baltimore ? They have nothing to do with each other...right? RIGHT? MASN is an entity unto itself, with nothing to do with the Orioles financially or otherwise! At lest that is what I have been told for 15 yrs now.

Yet they spit in your face, tell you it's raining, and you keep giving them money.  Maybe sit the kids down and give them a life lesson about people who treat you like trash, and how they should be treated back. 

 

 

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, TradeAngelos said:

Orioles - "MASN Makes no money!"

Courts - "You are liars, pay up". 

This has ZERO to do with the issues that were before the arbitrators or the courts.  The issue the arbitrators faced was what is the fair market value of the rights to broadcast Orioles and Nats games.   MASN argued that it was $35-40 mm a year for each team.  The Nats argued it was $120 mm for each team.  The arbitrators decided on $60 mm for each team.  Nobody ever argued that MASN made no money, and neither the arbitrators nor the courts found that the Orioles or MASN lied about anything.  The arbitrators did find, by the way, that the Nats’ proposal was far more than MASN ever could afford to pay.

The long and short of this is MASN is paying more than it wanted to and is therefore much less profitable than it hoped to be, and the Orioles’ share of the profits therefore is less than they’d hoped for.  Nobody’s going bankrupt or being forced to move from Baltimore, but the Orioles will have about $20 mm less in net revenue from MASN than they hoped they’d get.  

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Hallas said:

 

I'm wondering how they can ever come to a fair agreement here.  The Nationals probably are incentivized toward driving MASN out of business so they can negotiate a rights deal with anyone, and the fee structure is such that MASN is always going to be paying an inflated price to the O's because the negotiations with the Nationals, a much larger and richer market, determines the O's rights fees.

Here’s why I think this won’t happen.  If the parties can’t agree on the rights fees, the RSDC decides.   The courts have now affirmed that the RSDC can hear these arbitrations, and the RSDC has established what it’s methodology will be for determining the fair market value of the rights fees.  Now that the court has shown it won’t second guess that judgment, there’s no reason for the RSDC to change the methodology they came up with.   And by the way, the RSDC said that rights fees have to be set at a level that leaves MASN some profit.  So, there’s no risk that the Nats can put MASN out of business or force them to sell.  

Also, while MASN has the same ability to challenge in court any RSDC rulings relating to rights fees from later periods, I don’t think the courts will give them much credence.  All these court proceedings centered on two issues: (1) the fact that in the first arbitration, the Nats used lawyers who had represented MLB in other matters, and (2) in the second arbitration, an argument that the RSDC was biased and couldn’t hear the case.  The Nats won’t repeat the mistake of using lawyers who have represented MLB, and the courts have rejected the argument that the RSDC is biased and can’t hear the case.  So, you can expect any future challenges to go a lot faster.

I really can’t emphasize enough how unusual this case was.   The grounds for challenging an arbitration award in court are very limited, and usually such challenges are rejected by the courts pretty quickly.  These were unique issues that aren’t likely to be repeated, and I don’t think MASN will be able to drag out future proceedings the way they did this time.  I expect the courts would have little patience for it.  
 

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Is there a mechanism in place to punish frivolous appeals so this type of behavior has a downside?

There is a mechanism, but it is rarely invoked and I doubt it would be here.  

[TonySoprano]

I remember long ago when Peter Angelos boasted having a RSN like MASN would help put the Orioles on the heels of the Yankees and Red Sox, or right in their faces.

The 2012-16 money was in escrow so maybe I'm wrong, but that shouldn't have a direct impact on payroll.  Perhaps it will in 2030 when they are close to finalizing the 2017-2021 rights contract.  Better yet, sell the damn "network" to Ted Leonsis who may be able to put live programming on the network nearly year round.

[Too Tall]

Frobby, just want you to know I appreciate your insight on all this and hope the many Oriole Fans on this board do as well. Your knowledge and the time you take to research your posts add greatly to this site. THANK YOU!

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, TonySoprano said:

I remember long ago when Peter Angelos boasted having a RSN like MASN would help put the Orioles on the heels of the Yankees and Red Sox, or right in their faces.

The 2012-16 money was in escrow so maybe I'm wrong, but that shouldn't have a direct impact on payroll.  Perhaps it will in 2030 when they are close to finalizing the 2017-2021 rights contract.  Better yet, sell the damn "network" to Ted Leonsis who may be able to put live programming on the network nearly year round.

The real elephant in the room is that cable users are cutting the cord and so the cable revenue stream is shrinking.  MASN’s revenues are headed down just like every other cable network.  And, with the Bally Sports bankruptcy affecting a majority of the RSNs that offer baseball, MLB is doing a major re-think of how they distribute their televised games.  It won’t surprise me if MASN evaporates for reasons having nothing to do with the Nats.

[TradeAngelos]

11 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

I remember long ago when Peter Angelos boasted having a RSN like MASN would help put the Orioles on the heels of the Yankees and Red Sox, or right in their faces.

The 2012-16 money was in escrow so maybe I'm wrong, but that shouldn't have a direct impact on payroll.  Perhaps it will in 2030 when they are close to finalizing the 2017-2021 rights contract.  Better yet, sell the damn "network" to Ted Leonsis who may be able to put live programming on the network nearly year round.

You do Tony but apparently no one else does. Never seen a fanbase with so few values and principles, consistently lied to and treated like trash....yet keep coming back for more.  Have at it. You stand for nothing and never will. 

[NCRaven]

Let me introduce you to Oakland fans.  Name your sport.

[TradeAngelos]

41 minutes ago, Frobby said:

This has ZERO to do with the issues that were before the arbitrators or the courts.  The issue the arbitrators faced was what is the fair market value of the rights to broadcast Orioles and Nats games.   MASN argued that it was $35-40 mm a year for each team.  The Nats argued it was $120 mm for each team.  The arbitrators decided on $60 mm for each team.  Nobody ever argued that MASN made no money, and neither the arbitrators nor the courts found that the Orioles or MASN lied about anything.  The arbitrators did find, by the way, that the Nats’ proposal was far more than MASN ever could afford to pay.

The long and short of this is MASN is paying more than it wanted to and is therefore much less profitable than it hoped to be, and the Orioles’ share of the profits therefore is less than they’d hoped for.  Nobody’s going bankrupt or being forced to move from Baltimore, but the Orioles will have about $20 mm less in net revenue from MASN than they hoped they’d get.  

I'm conflating arguments I have heard HERE for the last 15 yrs, not specifically whatever the court said about all that. Want me to pull up some old posts going back over the last 15 yrs? I can easily do that. MASN makes no money! Nothing to do with Orioles! Small market small market blah blah blah. From you, amongst others. It was put out 8 YEARS AGO how much MASN was really making but of course the peanut gallery claims "lies". Just trying to keep the lights on right? Well the court decided that, yet again......was another lie. 

The court did say.......is that the "fair market valuation" the Orioles had in mind held no water. Imagine that! Maybe it was just a clerical error. Or maybe it was the Orioles doing the same thing to the Nat s as they do to the fans.. L-I-E. Oh we only made this much! No actually you made THAT much. So keep spinning, keep lawyering, keep semantically arguing, that is what you do. I thought you used to be fairly objectionable but doesn't seem that way anymore. 

Well not actually.......actually. Actually the court ruled their arguments were not valid. Who could have ever thought the Angelos Family would try to litigate their way out of paying 10's of millions the Nats were rightfully owed, that they decided to keep instead. NOBODY saw that coming did they? Of course not. 

The Angelos family is a corrupt, unethical group of people who don't give a damn about you or anyone else, just padding their bank accounts in whatever way they can, and running over anyone in the way if they have to. Fortunately they couldn't run over the Nats. I wish nothing but the absolute worst for anyone with Angelos as a last name. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, TradeAngelos said:

I'm conflating arguments I have heard HERE for the last 15 yrs, not specifically whatever the court said about all that. Want me to pull up some old posts going back over the last 15 yrs? I can easily do that. MASN makes no money! Nothing to do with Orioles! Small market small market blah blah blah. From you, amongst others. It was put out 8 YEARS AGO how much MASN was really making but of course the peanut gallery claims "lies". Just trying to keep the lights on right? Well the court decided that, yet again......was another lie. 

The court did say.......is that the "fair market valuation" the Orioles had in mind held no water. Imagine that! Maybe it was just a clerical error. 

First of all, feel free to dig up any old post of mine you like on the topic of MASN.  I have followed that case more closely than anyone on this board.  I’ve read the MASN contract.  I’ve read the two arbitrators’ decisions.  I’ve read the court decisions.  I’ve watched or read the oral arguments when they’ve been available.  I’ve read many of the main briefs of the parties.  I feel confident that I know extremely well what the evidence was, and what the arguments were.  And, ever since these materials became public, I’ve consistently said I thought MASN and the Orioles would lose any court challenge and that the arbitration would be upheld.  

That said, I’ve always thought MASN’s initial argument to the arbitrators about how to calculate “fair market value” was a defensible argument.   It was based on a mathematical formula called the Bortz formula that the RSDC had used in some other situations.  MASN argued that the RSDC was required to use that formula under the MASN contract, which did not refer specifically to the Bortz formula but said something like “using the methodology customarily used by the RSDC in similar matters.”  (That’s not the exact language, but fairly close.)  The RSDC concluded that it was not bound to use that formula and that this situation was different enough that it didn’t make sense to use it.   So, MASN lost on that issue.  But it wasn’t an absurd argument, and it wasn’t based on any misleading presentation about MASN’s economics.   MASN’s proposal for what the rights fees should be was a LOT closer to what the arbitrators awarded than the Nats’ proposal, which truly was ridiculous.  So I don’t really blame MASN for the positions they took at that stage.  

However, MASN’s petulant behavior once the award was made has been pitiful in my opinion.  



 

[Ohfan67]

2 hours ago, TradeAngelos said:

You do Tony but apparently no one else does. Never seen a fanbase with so few values and principles, consistently lied to and treated like trash....yet keep coming back for more.  Have at it. You stand for nothing and never will. 

What the heck are you talking about? You’re posting in an Orioles forum and are clearly an Orioles fan so I guess you stand for nothing and never will? 
 

[Going Underground]

Would the loss  in the case perhaps push the  Orioles to rethink the Leonsis offer? The cash cow that teams thought the RSN's would forever be seems to be closing.