Mariners looking to trade pitching for hitting?

[Bemorewins]

3 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

It’s just not the reality of MLB baseball for many teams any longer. Angelos has already told you the Orioles are a version of the Rays. That doesn’t meet the go all out to win it now program. They don’t want to shorten the competitive window with the core group by trading off chips, they aren’t going to be taking on gobs of salary, and they will likely move assets before they are low cost to acquire or hit free agency. They will have to be good at doing this part with lower position draft choices in order to refill the funnel. I don’t think any fan has to like the approach but it obviously works and it appears to be the direction they are going. Hopefully it means long term extensions for the select guys like Adley.

This is sad if true.

We haven’t won a World Series in FORTY YEARS (no appeared in one) and we have an overabundance of organizational talent after an extreme approach to tanking that lasted for half of a decade which resulted in unprecedented loosing.

And after all of that, you are telling me that the organization’s goal is simple to be “good” but not taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that suffering through all of the suckiness produced?

I’m not saying that you are wrong whatsoever, but for the sake of long-suffering fans in this community and the longterm viability of the organization in this community I desperately hope that you are. 

To be the Rays, IMO means several things some good and some not so good. But most importantly it means to have no fans and to be irrelevant in the community that you reside in. I would hate for that to be the Baltimore Orioles. I hope that a model more resembling the Astros is the goal.

We don’t need to “break the bank” in order to win Weold Series championships, but we do need to make the smart/right moves. And we should not be ever talking about “saving money” with the 29th payroll. That is completely and utterly ridiculous IMO.

[Billy F-Face3]

3 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

This is sad if true.

We haven’t won a World Series in FORTY YEARS (no appeared in one) and we have an overabundance of organizational talent after an extreme approach to tanking that lasted for half of a decade which resulted in unprecedented loosing.

And after all of that, you are telling me that the organization’s goal is simple to be “good” but not taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that suffering through all of the suckiness produced?

I’m not saying that you are wrong whatsoever, but for the sake of long-suffering fans in this community and the longterm viability of the organization in this community I desperately hope that you are. 

To be the Rays, IMO means several things some good and some not so good. But most importantly it means to have no fans and to be irrelevant in the community that you reside in. I would hate for that to be the Baltimore Orioles. I hope that a model more resembling the Astros is the goal.

We don’t need to “break the bank” in order to win Weold Series championships, but we do need to make the smart/right moves. And we should not be ever talking about “saving money” with the 29th payroll. That is completely and utterly ridiculous IMO.

Well said. I feel the same way.

[sportsfan8703]

7 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

This is sad if true.

We haven’t won a World Series in FORTY YEARS (no appeared in one) and we have an overabundance of organizational talent after an extreme approach to tanking that lasted for half of a decade which resulted in unprecedented loosing.

And after all of that, you are telling me that the organization’s goal is simple to be “good” but not taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that suffering through all of the suckiness produced?

I’m not saying that you are wrong whatsoever, but for the sake of long-suffering fans in this community and the longterm viability of the organization in this community I desperately hope that you are. 

To be the Rays, IMO means several things some good and some not so good. But most importantly it means to have no fans and to be irrelevant in the community that you reside in. I would hate for that to be the Baltimore Orioles. I hope that a model more resembling the Astros is the goal.

We don’t need to “break the bank” in order to win Weold Series championships, but we do need to make the smart/right moves. And we should not be ever talking about “saving money” with the 29th payroll. That is completely and utterly ridiculous IMO.

Giolito is the only SP that would better us for a playoff series. We have the horses to get there. Now we need to buy based on who is a difference maker enough to help us. Giolito. 

Montgomery, Stroman, and others, would be strictly regular season moves in terms of improvement, and only a negligible upgrade over Kremer/Grayson/Means/Gibson for Game 3 and 4. 

[luismatos4prez]

11 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Giolito is the only SP that would better us for a playoff series. We have the horses to get there. Now we need to buy based on who is a difference maker enough to help us. Giolito. 

Montgomery, Stroman, and others, would be strictly regular season moves in terms of improvement, and only a negligible upgrade over Kremer/Grayson/Means/Gibson for Game 3 and 4. 

I disagree on both points. 

Stroman/Montgomery are a big step up from Kremer/Gibson. There's a big difference between a 3.5 ERA guy and a 4.5 ERA guy. We have no idea what we can expect from GRod/Means this fall. Same with Wells/Bradish who have never started 30+ times before like Stroman/Montgomery have.

2 years ago, I would have agreed that Giolito is the ace we need. But both Stroman and Montgomery have been at least as good as him since the beginning of last year. I'd be happy if we got him, but he's in the same tier as those two.

[Roll Tide]

24 minutes ago, luismatos4prez said:

I disagree on both points. 

Stroman/Montgomery are a big step up from Kremer/Gibson. There's a big difference between a 3.5 ERA guy and a 4.5 ERA guy. We have no idea what we can expect from GRod/Means this fall. Same with Wells/Bradish who have never started 30+ times before like Stroman/Montgomery have.

2 years ago, I would have agreed that Giolito is the ace we need. But both Stroman and Montgomery have been at least as good as him since the beginning of last year. I'd be happy if we got him, but he's in the same tier as those two.

Kremer came use a day or two ago. He got off to a slow start and then had that bad outing 3-4 starts ago. Imo he’s not a 4.5 ERA pitcher 

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

This is sad if true.

We haven’t won a World Series in FORTY YEARS (no appeared in one) and we have an overabundance of organizational talent after an extreme approach to tanking that lasted for half of a decade which resulted in unprecedented loosing.

And after all of that, you are telling me that the organization’s goal is simple to be “good” but not taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that suffering through all of the suckiness produced?

I’m not saying that you are wrong whatsoever, but for the sake of long-suffering fans in this community and the longterm viability of the organization in this community I desperately hope that you are. 

To be the Rays, IMO means several things some good and some not so good. But most importantly it means to have no fans and to be irrelevant in the community that you reside in. I would hate for that to be the Baltimore Orioles. I hope that a model more resembling the Astros is the goal.

We don’t need to “break the bank” in order to win Weold Series championships, but we do need to make the smart/right moves. And we should not be ever talking about “saving money” with the 29th payroll. That is completely and utterly ridiculous IMO.

To emulate the Rays successful formula you don’t need to be in a city not interested in baseball or the team. 
 

Ive as have many posters here have lived through those 40 years. The goal when Elias took over was to create a perennial contender. We are finally seeing the fruits from fixing the front office, scouting and development, and a number of poor ownership groups.

You can thank MLB for allowing the Expos to  move to DC and cutting the TV market in more than half. That began the transition from big market to where we are now.

Peter Angelos in his early years and beyond is certainly guilty of meddling. But, he did try to buy the thing with the Alomar, Surhoff, Bonilla, Albert Belle etc teams. Obviously it didn’t work. 
 

If you’ve been a fan 40 plus years you know that our farm system failed us horribly after producing Cal Ripken. You can count the marquee names on 1 hand that were drafted and produced here. Our drafting has been a F for most of that time. Our player development has been awful. You still can’t name a homegrown number 1 starter after Mussina that this organization produced. The major blunder has finally been fixed by Elias under John Angelos.

 

Can he gobble up salary to obtain a #1? Can he do it bye hurting the prospect base? Will he sign high priced long term deal with second tier guys? I wouldn’t expect it to happen. I think we will see smart moves, but I think it’s obvious those clamoring for the big name high priced acquisitions is going to be disappointed. I think this model will be painful to fans when you have to watch Mullins traded, Santander leaving one way or the other, even Henderson a few years down the road. But, I believe it’s going to be the model….. Draft and obtain talent, trade guys a year early as opposed to late, sign a select few long term. Expect a payroll that’s at the top of the bottom half. Love the jersey from the front as opposed to the name on the back. 
 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Roll Tide

[luismatos4prez]

8 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Kremer came use a day or two ago. He got off to a slow start and then had that bad outing 3-4 starts ago. Imo he’s not a 4.5 ERA pitcher 

He has a career 4.63 ERA, 4.69 FIP, 4.66 xFIP. To me, he's that guy until he proves otherwise over a large sample size. I like Dean a lot, but he's a 4th starter.  Not someone I want starting in the wild card series.

Means, Bradish, and Wells are guys I'd give the ball to, but I don't know how much we can count on them down the stretch. A proven vet with #2 stuff that has started 30+ games before and has postseason experience would be huge. Stroman, Montgomery, Giolito, and ERod all fit that mold.

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Giolito is the only SP that would better us for a playoff series. We have the horses to get there. Now we need to buy based on who is a difference maker enough to help us. Giolito. 

Montgomery, Stroman, and others, would be strictly regular season moves in terms of improvement, and only a negligible upgrade over Kremer/Grayson/Means/Gibson for Game 3 and 4. 

If you can’t see the difference between what Stroman has done this season and what Giolito, Kremer, and Gibson have done I don’t know how you judge or watch baseball.

And then to mention Grayson Rodriguez and Means when comparing where they are to what Stroman has done with a sub 3 ERA, I’m truly baffled. 

Just curious, do you watch a lot or any non-Orioles games?

[foxfield]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

This is sad if true.

We haven’t won a World Series in FORTY YEARS (no appeared in one) and we have an overabundance of organizational talent after an extreme approach to tanking that lasted for half of a decade which resulted in unprecedented loosing.

And after all of that, you are telling me that the organization’s goal is simple to be “good” but not taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that suffering through all of the suckiness produced?

I’m not saying that you are wrong whatsoever, but for the sake of long-suffering fans in this community and the longterm viability of the organization in this community I desperately hope that you are. 

To be the Rays, IMO means several things some good and some not so good. But most importantly it means to have no fans and to be irrelevant in the community that you reside in. I would hate for that to be the Baltimore Orioles. I hope that a model more resembling the Astros is the goal.

We don’t need to “break the bank” in order to win Weold Series championships, but we do need to make the smart/right moves. And we should not be ever talking about “saving money” with the 29th payroll. That is completely and utterly ridiculous IMO.

This argument wants things both ways.  The desire to win this years WS, or make a strong effort to do so, and the idea of not breaking the bank and making strong smart/right moves are likely the goal of every team.

The Orioles are in a unique position in that they are flush with talent, arguably money, and are in a race for not only the AL East, but for being the best team in baseball.  

With experience and untapped talent to trade, they simply need a willing seller.  Those difference making pieces, if available, might be available, and those pieces that might make the difference will likely be very expensive.

I am eager to see how it shapes out, but if the moves result in fringe BP moves and not much else, I don't think that will be sad.  I hope that isn't the case, but smart/right moves could make it happen that way.

I think it, like this season, will be fun and nerve wracking all at the same time.

[Roll Tide]

5 minutes ago, luismatos4prez said:

He has a career 4.63 ERA, 4.69 FIP, 4.66 xFIP. To me, he's that guy until he proves otherwise over a large sample size. I like Dean a lot, but he's a 4th starter.  Not someone I want starting in the wild card series.

Means, Bradish, and Wells are guys I'd give the ball to, but I don't know how much we can count on them down the stretch. A proven vet with #2 stuff that has started 30+ games before and has postseason experience would be huge. Stroman, Montgomery, Giolito, and ERod all fit that mold.

He was a 3.23 era starter last season in 21 starts. If you believe in development then he’s done it. He had a rough April …..in May he had 5 starts and just under 30 innings giving up 3 runs 2 times, 1 run 2 times, and a zero. If you look at his 6 starts in June it was 4 starts of 2, 2 , 1, and 3. As mentioned, he had that 7 run disaster 2 starts ago that reinflated the ERA. He’s been a 3.00 ERA pitcher in 10 of his last 12 starts after an abysmal start. Not a guy you go find a replacement for.

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

To emulate the Rays successful formula you don’t need to be in a city not interested in baseball or the team. 
 

Ive as have many posters here have lived through those 40 years. The goal when Elias took over was to create a perennial contender. We are finally seeing the fruits from fixing the front office, scouting and development, and a number of poor ownership groups.

You can thank MLB for allowing the Expos to  move to DC and cutting the TV market in more than half. That began the transition from big market to where we are now.

Peter Angelos in his early years and beyond is certainly guilty of meddling. But, he did try to buy the thing with the Alomar, Surhoff, Bonilla, Albert Belle etc teams. Obviously it didn’t work. 
 

If you’ve been a fan 40 plus years you know that our farm system failed us horribly after producing Cal Ripken. You can count the marquee names on 1 hand that played and produced here. The major blunder has finally been fixed by Elias under John Angelos.

 

Can he gobble up salary to obtain a #1? Can he do it bye hurting the prospect base? Will he sign high priced long term deal with second tier guys? I wouldn’t expect it to happen. I think we will see smart moves, but I think it’s obvious those clamoring for the big name high priced acquisitions is going to be disappointed. I think this model will be painful to fans when you have to watch Mullins traded, Santander leaving one way or the other, even Henderson a few years down the road. But, I believe it’s going to be the model….. Draft and obtain talent, trade guys a year early as opposed to late, sign a select few long term. Expect a payroll that’s at the top of the bottom half. Love the jersey from the front as opposed to the name on the back. 
 

 

I have children who are gen Z that whole love the name on the front of the jersey more than the back doesn’t fly with the younger generations. They don’t engage sports or really anything that way. They don’t possess that type of institutional loyalty.

To be honest with you, I’m in my 40’s and don’t have any memories of the last championship from 83’. 

If want you say is true, I have less than zero interest in the Orioles being in a constant state of rebuilding. For what? So the owner can make gobs more money to add to his billionaire status? How does that benefit me as a fan and a resident of this community?

If the Orioles are even meaningfully considering becoming some or of second rate franchise that is nothing more than a farm team for the more serious franchises in the sport, it won’t just be me who is gone. We will truly see Camden Yards reflect the Trop. 

It’s horrifying to me to even hear an idea of preparing to sell off Gunnar Henderson. The kid looks like he could be special, and a multiple time all-star etc. Maybe our next Cal Ripken?

I have no interest in watching/supporting the Orioles be in a constant state of rebuilding. I have spent at probably close to a couple thousand dollars going to games and buying merch for myself and family this season. If the Orioles alienate fans like me, I can simple reallocate those funds for another trip to Europe or the Caribbean. We don’t live in the times of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. Fans/people have way too many other entertainment options.

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, foxfield said:

This argument wants things both ways.  The desire to win this years WS, or make a strong effort to do so, and the idea of not breaking the bank and making strong smart/right moves are likely the goal of every team.

The Orioles are in a unique position in that they are flush with talent, arguably money, and are in a race for not only the AL East, but for being the best team in baseball.  

With experience and untapped talent to trade, they simply need a willing seller.  Those difference making pieces, if available, might be available, and those pieces that might make the difference will likely be very expensive.

I am eager to see how it shapes out, but if the moves result in fringe BP moves and not much else, I don't think that will be sad.  I hope that isn't the case, but smart/right moves could make it happen that way.

I think it, like this season, will be fun and nerve wracking all at the same time.

To be clear, I don’t want nor do I think it is even possible for the Orioles to be in a go for it all now/sacrifice the future mode.

IMO the Orioles have WAY TOO MANY organizational assets for that to even be a real thing. That kind of notion from posters/fans to me wrecks of fear and a scarcity mentality. And I get it. For most fans who stayed around and suffered through the most unprecedented loosing period in the franchise’s history, all we had to look forward to during those seasons was to follow prospects. 

However, things have changed/switched now and many fans are still in the “prospects first and foremost” mode, understandably.

I am no longer their though, I don’t see the two agendas being at odds or competing with one another anymore. 

We can make efforts to be the best Major League team together, while still prioritizing having a healthy and producing farm system.

Trading for a good starter and a bullpen arm will/cannot deplete our very robust farm system.

[foxfield]

33 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

To be clear, I don’t want nor do I think it is even possible for the Orioles to be in a go for it all now/sacrifice the future mode.

IMO the Orioles have WAY TOO MANY organizational assets for that to even be a real thing. That kind of notion from posters/fans to me wrecks of fear and a scarcity mentality. And I get it. For most fans who stayed around and suffered through the most unprecedented loosing period in the franchise’s history, all we had to look forward to during those seasons was to follow prospects. 

However, things have changed/switched now and many fans are still in the “prospects first and foremost” mode, understandably.

I am no longer their though, I don’t see the two agendas being at odds or competing with one another anymore. 

We can make efforts to be the best Major League team together, while still prioritizing having a healthy and producing farm system.

Trading for a good starter and a bullpen arm will/cannot deplete our very robust farm system.

I think you are saying the right thing, but still getting something wrong. 
 

Of course the Orioles have nearly an embarrassment of riches. But that in no way means they cannot hurt the future significantly. 
 

Let’s say Stroman is available but they want Cowser and Kjerstad or they ask for Gunnar and Ortiz. 
 

The Orioles could do either one and have a still rich talent pool. But I am not making either of those deals. 
 

That doesn’t mean players are untouchable. But if the market is sky high there may…may be better deals to make in the off season. 
 

I am not disagreeing with the idea or the opportunity to make strong/smart moves. 
 

I am disagreeing with the idea that the Orioles can’t possibly make a damaging move. We see teams do it all the time. 
 

Cease was traded by the Cubs. Tatis was traded for pitching. It happens. It could here too.

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by foxfield

[7Mo]

2 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

This is sad if true.

We haven’t won a World Series in FORTY YEARS (no appeared in one) and we have an overabundance of organizational talent after an extreme approach to tanking that lasted for half of a decade which resulted in unprecedented loosing.

Should this affect the way decisions are made today on how to improve the organization?

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, 7Mo said:

Should this affect the way decisions are made today on how to improve the organization?

I’m not sure that I exactly understand what you are asking.

But I think after the extreme process of tanking that it took to get to where we are and after accumulating a massive war chess of assets, that the goal should be to put ourselves in a position to compete/win multiple championships. Not simply being satisfied with doing enough to qualify for a postseason birth.