John Angelos continues to remind us how awful he is

[TonySoprano]

The State built him the ballpark; gave him a sweetheart deal on the lease.   $600M more which the Ravens quickly jumped on.   I'll say again, he's a grifter, asking the State to fight his legal battles with MLB and also throw him hundreds of millions more taxpayer money into a development which is all reward no risk for him.    

They kept a MASN fight tied up in the courts for several years fighting over every last nickel and dime.   Fredo's trying that again only this time there's a time limit, no more extensions.  On National Spumoni day he's again talking about showing his books.

His father pulled the same stunt with payroll, trying to virtue signal how he really didn't want to raise ticket prices all the while complaining that there should be paying customers bail out his stupidity.  Wonder why the name Machado ist verbotten because Peter chose Chris Davis over him.

[TradeAngelos]

4 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

And there we have it. Our first pro John Angelos post. Somebody had to do it. I think Tradeangelos' head just exploded somewhere though.

I saw who posted it, read the first sentence and knew I didn't need to read any more. 

But these people don't exist, so I'm told. Like I don't read these posts daily here and on twitter. Just a figment of my imagination. 

 

[deward]

2 hours ago, tntoriole said:

And limits lots of options too.. not everyone is a Steve Cohen who can spend 150 million to other teams to send his free agent mistakes  to another team or to just eat the cost. 

 

 

Cohen tried to build the Mets in a hurry, with no underlying foundation. I assume Elias would take a more methodical approach. The Dodgers would be the aspirational outcome for any big-market, big-payroll team.

[backwardsk]

4 hours ago, waroriole said:

He also owned Little Caesars and the Red Wings. His family had other income sources besides the wife’s country music career. 

Have you not heard Marianne Ilitch’s cover of “Try That in Small Town”?

[deward]

3 hours ago, baltfan said:

He said prior to this interview they were going to emulate the Rays.  I don’t know why anyone is surprised by any of this.  He said that they probably won’t be able to keep people here their whole careers.  After Machado, is that a surprise to anyone ?   Suppose Gunnar becomes a superstar, would you want the Orioles when he hit free agency to offer a 10-12 year deal?   Did you think they should have paid Machado?

I would want them to sign Gunnar to that deal before he hits free agency. Make an extension that carries him into his early to mid thirties worth his while. I don't see him turning down a Devers-style extension that gives him another crack at a contract somewhere around age 33-35. He might insist on an opt-out, which would be ok too if it's in trade for a couple of FA years. If Gunnar becomes a superstar, why would you not want the club to make every effort to extend his time in an O's uniform? 

In a vacuum, yes, Machado was worth the initial 10-year deal that he signed with San Diego (the recent extension is a different matter). Given the general state of the org at the time, it probably wasn't the right decision for the O's to sign him. Although, you could make a case for Manny's value to Elias as an inherited trade asset. 

[baltfan]

1 minute ago, deward said:

I would want them to sign Gunnar to that deal before he hits free agency. Make an extension that carries him into his early to mid thirties worth his while. I don't see him turning down a Devers-style extension that gives him another crack at a contract somewhere around age 33-35. He might insist on an opt-out, which would be ok too if it's in trade for a couple of FA years. If Gunnar becomes a superstar, why would you not want the club to make every effort to extend his time in an O's uniform? 

In a vacuum, yes, Machado was worth the initial 10-year deal that he signed with San Diego (the recent extension is a different matter). Given the general state of the org at the time, it probably wasn't the right decision for the O's to sign him. Although, you could make a case for Manny's value to Elias as an inherited trade asset. 

I would be in favor of trying to do something like this, I just don’t know that Gunnar is. 

[accinfo]

Just now, deward said:

I would want them to sign Gunnar to that deal before he hits free agency. Make an extension that carries him into his early to mid thirties worth his while. I don't see him turning down a Devers-style extension that gives him another crack at a contract somewhere around age 33-35. He might insist on an opt-out, which would be ok too if it's in trade for a couple of FA years. If Gunnar becomes a superstar, why would you not want the club to make every effort to extend his time in an O's uniform? 

I would love Gunnar to do it but his agent tells me otherwise.  I am going to root for him hard as long as he wears the Orioles uniform.

[deward]

14 minutes ago, baltfan said:

I would be in favor of trying to do something like this, I just don’t know that Gunnar is. 

You never know until you try. I'm not suggesting that Gunnar would or should take an Acuna or Franco style discount. He's got a shot at hitting the market as a star under 30. That's an incredibly lucrative position to be in, and the O's are going to have make it worth it for him to delay it by any length of time. Boras isn't unwilling to sign extensions, he just doesn't advise his clients to give discounts.

Boras has been one of baseball’s most influential and successful agents for about 30 years, and it’s fair to say that he’s earned that reputation by ensuring that his clients are paid what they’re worth. Often, that does mean taking them to free agency, where teams have to bid against one another and a player can gauge their true market value. However, in the last decade, Boras has negotiated no fewer than eight contract extensions for clients prior to their reaching free agency, including some very relevant precedents for a theoretical Kirilloff deal.

In early 2011, Boras and client Carlos González—an electrifying bat-first corner outfielder who batted left-handed—agreed to a seven-year, $80-million deal with the Colorado Rockies, when González was still four years from free agency. Later that year, just months before Angels pitcher Jered Weaver was due to hit free agency, he and Boras signed a five-year extension with the team.

In March 2013, Carlos Gómez and Boras agreed to a three-year extension to keep him with the Brewers, when he was a year from free agency. Weeks later, Boras and client Elvis Andrus agreed on an eight-year deal with the Rangers, when Andrus was still several years from free agency. In 2016, Boras client Stephen Strasburg signed an extension with the Nationals in May of what would otherwise have been his walk year.

More recently, Boras has negotiated long-term deals for clients José Altuve and Xander Bogaerts, each of whom was a year from free agency at the time. The idea that Boras is inflexibly averse to any pre-free agency deal is false and misleading.

https://twinsdaily.com/news-rumors/minnesota-twins/alex-kirilloff-and-the-truth-about-scott-boras-and-contract-extensions-r10429/

[baltfan]

3 minutes ago, deward said:

You never know until you try. I'm not suggesting that Gunnar would or should take an Acuna or Franco style discount. He's got a shot at hitting the market as a star under 30. That's an incredibly lucrative position to be in, and the O's are going to have make it worth it for him to delay it by any length of time. Boras isn't unwilling to sign extensions, he just doesn't advise his clients to give discounts.

Boras has been one of baseball’s most influential and successful agents for about 30 years, and it’s fair to say that he’s earned that reputation by ensuring that his clients are paid what they’re worth. Often, that does mean taking them to free agency, where teams have to bid against one another and a player can gauge their true market value. However, in the last decade, Boras has negotiated no fewer than eight contract extensions for clients prior to their reaching free agency, including some very relevant precedents for a theoretical Kirilloff deal.

In early 2011, Boras and client Carlos González—an electrifying bat-first corner outfielder who batted left-handed—agreed to a seven-year, $80-million deal with the Colorado Rockies, when González was still four years from free agency. Later that year, just months before Angels pitcher Jered Weaver was due to hit free agency, he and Boras signed a five-year extension with the team.

In March 2013, Carlos Gómez and Boras agreed to a three-year extension to keep him with the Brewers, when he was a year from free agency. Weeks later, Boras and client Elvis Andrus agreed on an eight-year deal with the Rangers, when Andrus was still several years from free agency. In 2016, Boras client Stephen Strasburg signed an extension with the Nationals in May of what would otherwise have been his walk year.

More recently, Boras has negotiated long-term deals for clients José Altuve and Xander Bogaerts, each of whom was a year from free agency at the time. The idea that Boras is inflexibly averse to any pre-free agency deal is false and misleading.

https://twinsdaily.com/news-rumors/minnesota-twins/alex-kirilloff-and-the-truth-about-scott-boras-and-contract-extensions-r10429/

I agree Boras does what his players tell him to do.  But we know what he recommends and that most players with him as an agent are looking to maximize $$$.  That said, he would be my agent if I were a player. 

[jabba72]

5 minutes ago, baltfan said:

I agree Boras does what his players tell him to do.  But we know what he recommends and that most players with him as an agent are looking to maximize $$$.  That said, he would be my agent if I were a player. 

I think Boras would strongly advise against any team friendly deal.  Pretty much any agent can arrange something like that. I think Boras is you're agent means one thing only, money.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

I think Boras would strongly advise against any team friendly deal.  Pretty much any agent can arrange something like that. I think Boras is you're agent means one thing only, money.

Is Boras good at negotating endorsements and such?

I honestly have no idea.

I also have no idea why a per-arbitration player is even bothering to pay for an agent unless they are high profile enough to have endorsement deals to worry about.

[Billy F-Face3]

10 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

The team is going to be sold when Peter Angelos dies. John, his brother, and his mother cannot afford to keep the team after estate taxes hit. 

As long as PA dies before these players leave in free agency, then new ownership can and will extend them. In my opinion, it's a waste of time to lament how terrible John is as a person and baseball executive because this team will operate much differently under new ownership, and that time will hopefully come within the next few years. Although he certainly is a terrible person and baseball executive.

You beat me to the post. The more I think about the ownership situation, the more I'm getting a very intuitive feeling that the Orioles will be under new ownership by the time players like Gunnar and Adley get to their free agent years. Let's look at the facts..

• Peter Angelos is 94 years old.
• Goldman Sachs was hired just last year, in 2022, to evaluate the Orioles franchise for a potential sale.
• When under deposition during her son's lawsuit, Georgia Angelos has stated that it was in the family's best interest to place the team for sale.

However, something I fear might throw a wrench into things and goes against this idea, is the misunderstood talking point repeatedly posted on this message board about estate taxes. I'm no expert on tax law, but just doing a quick search and having a look at estate tax laws, it would appear that the idea the Angelos's would have to pay a ton of Estate Taxes is incorrect. The reason being is that there is something called "The Unlimited Marital Deduction", and Peter's estate is being passed to his spouse, Georgia. This means that Georgia is not subject to estate tax.

Quote

Anything in the estate that is bequeathed to a surviving spouse is not counted in the total amount and isn't subject to estate tax. The right of spouses to leave any amount to one another is known as the unlimited marital deduction. When the surviving spouse who inherited an estate dies, the beneficiaries may then owe estate taxes if the estate exceeds the exclusion limit. Other deductions, including charitable donations or any debts or fees that come with the estate, are also not included in the final calculation.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/120715/estate-taxes-who-pays-what-and-how-much.asp

 

Never the less, there is still good reason to believe that the Orioles could be under new ownership in approximately 5 years time.

[jabba72]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Is Boras at negotating endorsements and such?

I honestly have no idea.

I also have no idea why a per-arbitration player is even bothering to pay for an agent unless they are high profile enough to have endorsement deals to worry about.

Doing a google search nothing came up that suggest he does player endorsements but I didnt search too far. My guess is endorsements are something thats part of the Boras team.

[rudyrooster]

I don't need to read 20 pages of comments to express my opinion on this matter.

FOR GODSAKE PLEASE LET THIS TEAM BE SOLD TO SOME ENTITY THAT'S COMMITTED TO BALTIMORE!!!

 

[ExileAngelos]

13 hours ago, walkersvillefan said:

Long time lurker - first time poster....at least the first post in many years.

I am hoping someone smarter than me here can explain why / how our payroll was higher 25 years ago than it is now.  The O's had the highest payroll in the league in 1998 at just over $71 million. I get that revenue is down from the last five years but the dollar is also worth nearly twice as much now as it was in 1998.

Biggest reason was the ballpark. It was a cultural phenomenon in the 1990's, selling out each and every night.  Not to mention the Nationals were still six years away from being in existence.