Arm injury for Bautista?

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

There’s always an agenda with you.  I’m not arguing that the bullpen is as good without Bautista as with him.  I was paying a compliment to the rest of the bullpen for stepping up in his absence over the remainder of the regular season.  And clearly, they did.   Some people were worried that there would be a catastrophic drop-off and a huge domino effect, but it didn’t happen.  Here are some individuals who stepped up IMO:

D.L. Hall — threw to a 2.70 ERA in 16.1 IP after Bautista went down.  

Cionel Perez — 2.61 ERA in 10.1 IP

Cole Irvin — 0 ER in 7.2 innings of relief.  I never did understand why he got optioned, which took away one of our few long relief options.  

Tyler Wells - 0 ER in 5 innings over the last 9 days of the season after being activated.   I’ll be very glad to have him in our bullpen in the playoffs.  

Now, am I confident in how our bullpen will do in the playoffs?   I’d put myself somewhere in the middle.  I’m not nearly as confident as I’d be if Bautista was closing out games, but I think our bullpen is competent and that the 5 days off will do them a world of good.  Cano in particular will benefit, and the addition of Wells and one of the other starters will help too.  So, we’ll see how it goes.  


 

Presenting reasons why it’s not as good isn’t an agenda. I mean, I guess if it is, you have one too.

Your words were the performance of the pen was unchanged. That’s not true, at least not by all stats and using something like w/l record really doesn’t prove or show anything. If you are going to represent something as a fact, all info should support that fact. 
 

In this case, the info doesn’t do that and the neither does the eye test. We clearly miss him.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Sports Guy

[clapdiddy]

I am all for the idea of a "matchup" bullpen with Bautista down in the playoffs, with no designated closer.   

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Presenting reasons why it’s not as good isn’t an agenda. I mean, I guess if it is, you have one too.

Your words were the performance of the pen was unchanged. That’s not true, at least not by all stats and using something like w/l record really doesn’t prove or show anything. If you are going to represent something as a fact, all info should support that fact. 
 

In this case, the info doesn’t do that and the neither does the eye test. We clearly miss him.

The bottom line results did not change.  That’s what I was getting at.  Sure, we’d all prefer to see Felix come in and strike out the side, to seeing Cano come in, get an out and allow a double, then see Perez come in mid-inning, walk a guy  and then get two lefties on a long fly ball and a ground out.  But the guys managed to get it done.  We didn’t blow a ton of games.  We’ll see how things go in the playoffs.  

[Sanity Check]

9 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The bottom line results did not change.  That’s what I was getting at.  Sure, we’d all prefer to see Felix come in and strike out the side, to seeing Cano come in, get an out and allow a double, then see Perez come in mid-inning, walk a guy  and then get two lefties on a long fly ball and a ground out.  But the guys managed to get it done.  We didn’t blow a ton of games.  We’ll see how things go in the playoffs.  

Some people just like to argue.  Let's be honest with ourselves for a moment....many folks on here would have bet real money that the bullpen's results would have been worse than before Bautista went down.....and by worse, let's just say it was expected that we might blow a higher % of save opportunities than the "Felix bullpen" AND we would possibly see some major meltdowns.  Actually, we did see a few games where the bullpen gave up just enough runs to not lose, but overall, the numbers speak for themselves....the usage stayed the same and the results (with and without Felix) were surprisingly similar.

Your statistical information proved that we did not get the drop-off/horror show than many expected, and I completely agree the guys who all stepped up deserve credit for doing so.

I'm still trying to see where you said that the bullpen would not be better with Bautista in it......I can't find that anywhere.  Mind-boggling what people will choose to debate.

For the record, I think we'd all prefer a healthy Bautista.

[Frobby]

7 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Some people just like to argue.  Let's be honest with ourselves for a moment....many folks on here would have bet real money that the bullpen's results would have been worse than before Bautista went down.....and by worse, let's just say it was expected that we might blow a higher % of save opportunities than the "Felix bullpen" AND we would possibly see some major meltdowns.  Actually, we did see a few games where the bullpen gave up just enough runs to not lose, but overall, the numbers speak for themselves....the usage stayed the same and the results (with and without Felix) were surprisingly similar.

Your statistical information proved that we did not get the drop-off/horror show than many expected, and I completely agree the guys who all stepped up deserve credit for doing so.

I'm still trying to see where you said that the bullpen would not be better with Bautista in it......I can't find that anywhere.  Mind-boggling what people will choose to debate.

For the record, I think we'd all prefer a healthy Bautista.

This is more or less what I was trying to say.  There was that one stretch in the Houston and Cleveland series at the end of the 17 consecutive game stretch where it seemed that the bullpen was at the breaking point.   Enter Means, Gibson, day off, and Bradish.  The pen got a break just when they needed it most.  It might have gotten ugly if they didn’t.  

[dystopia]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Sorry, I missed those stats that virtually mean nothing. 
 

There is very little importance to any of that. I mean, do you actually believe this pen is as good? Do you feel as good about the pen?

Outside of the walk rate, all your peripheral stats were far worse. No one really stepped up as that go to, slam the door shut guy. 
 

It’s an enormous drop off.

Well there was that stretch of 17 straight days with games where the starters didn’t last long and the ‘pen got abused. There were games during that stretch where you could really feel the loss of Felix, but you could also argue that overwork was more of a contributor to the drop in performance than not having Bautista. 

[Sports Guy]

24 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Some people just like to argue.  Let's be honest with ourselves for a moment....many folks on here would have bet real money that the bullpen's results would have been worse than before Bautista went down.....and by worse, let's just say it was expected that we might blow a higher % of save opportunities than the "Felix bullpen" AND we would possibly see some major meltdowns.  Actually, we did see a few games where the bullpen gave up just enough runs to not lose, but overall, the numbers speak for themselves....the usage stayed the same and the results (with and without Felix) were surprisingly similar.

Your statistical information proved that we did not get the drop-off/horror show than many expected, and I completely agree the guys who all stepped up deserve credit for doing so.

I'm still trying to see where you said that the bullpen would not be better with Bautista in it......I can't find that anywhere.  Mind-boggling what people will choose to debate.

For the record, I think we'd all prefer a healthy Bautista.

I can see how you dislike it when people try to paint a full picture as opposed to cherry picking stars and not providing the complete outlook for things.

But hey, maybe that’s just the superstition in ya!

[rm5678]

O's will travel to Arlington TX next week, so I'm guessing that Bautista will travel with the team to TX and have his TJ surgery done there next week (by Dr. Meister) while the O's are there.

[OnlyOneOriole]

Been posting on this thread a few times as I have the exact same injury as FB and I said 2 months ago that he would need surgery and not pitch again this season.

 

Pitching underhand is fine....throwing anything overhand is very painful. 

Also feel as if the All Star game was where he first hurt himself.   He looked to me to be shaking his arm then when he was struggling and I know that feeling.   I said then that he was being pitched wayyyyyyyyyyy too long considering how wild he was that day.  It was obvious.  I am not sure why more people are not pointing this out.  The American league manager completely screwed him. 

The injury happens usually over a few weeks or months.  Not all at once like a bone breaking or a sprained ankle. 

Having this injury...he should be able to pitch again, but the chances of him throwing 100 MPH again are imo pretty low.  I can't explain it other than to say everything will always hurt.  Even picking up a heavier shopping bag with that arm will hurt.  Not to where he can't pitch....but 100 MPH again?

 

He is probably going to have to learn how to throw some different pitches.

Edited October 5, 2023 by OnlyOneOriole

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

Been posting on this thread a few times as I have the exact same injury as FB and I said 2 months ago that he would need surgery and not pitch again this season.

 

Pitching underhand is fine....throwing anything overhand is very painful. 

Also feel as if the All Star game was where he first hurt himself.   He looked to me to be shaking his arm then when he was struggling and I know that feeling.   I said then that he was being pitched wayyyyyyyyyyy too long considering how wild he was that day.  It was obvious.  I am not sure why more people are not pointing this out.

The injury happens usually over a few weeks or months.  Not all at once like a bone breaking or a sprained ankle. 

Having this injury...he should be able to pitch again, but the chances of him throwing 100 MPH again are imo pretty low.  I can't explain it other than to say everything will always hurt.  Even picking up a heavier shopping bag with that arm will hurt.  Not to where he can't pitch....but 100 MPH again?

 

He is probably going to have to learn how to throw some different pitches.

Guys have come back from one TJ still being able to throw 100.

Not everyone certainly but we have seen it.

 

[OnlyOneOriole]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Guys have come back from one TJ still being able to throw 100.

Not everyone certainly but we have seen it.

 

At best it is going to be 50/50.   When I saw the MRI of my elbow after my injury  it looked like swiss cheese. 

 

That area of the body just does not heal well.   Lack of blood flow being a big reason.  Doing normal things?  Yes.  Throwing 100 MPH?????

 

I hope he is an exception. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by OnlyOneOriole

[yark14]

1 hour ago, rm5678 said:

O's will travel to Arlington TX next week, so I'm guessing that Bautista will travel with the team to TX and have his TJ surgery done there next week (by Dr. Meister) while the O's are there.

Same surgeon that did John Means' TJ.  With how good Means is looking right now, seems like a good choice.

Wonder if Bautista will stick around the Dallas area and do his rehab at the same training center that Means did?

Edited October 5, 2023 by yark14

[Roll Tide]

40 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

Been posting on this thread a few times as I have the exact same injury as FB and I said 2 months ago that he would need surgery and not pitch again this season.

 

Pitching underhand is fine....throwing anything overhand is very painful. 

Also feel as if the All Star game was where he first hurt himself.   He looked to me to be shaking his arm then when he was struggling and I know that feeling.   I said then that he was being pitched wayyyyyyyyyyy too long considering how wild he was that day.  It was obvious.  I am not sure why more people are not pointing this out.  The American league manager completely screwed him. 

The injury happens usually over a few weeks or months.  Not all at once like a bone breaking or a sprained ankle. 

Having this injury...he should be able to pitch again, but the chances of him throwing 100 MPH again are imo pretty low.  I can't explain it other than to say everything will always hurt.  Even picking up a heavier shopping bag with that arm will hurt.  Not to where he can't pitch....but 100 MPH again?

 

He is probably going to have to learn how to throw some different pitches.

Really?

Quote

Some players do throw faster after Tommy John surgery. This is often credited to the physical therapy to strengthen the arm and the fact that the athlete once again has a strong ligament that can allow maximum effort throwing without pain.

https://www.hss.edu/condition-list_tommy-john-surgery.asp#:~:text=Some players do throw faster,maximum effort throwing without pain.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, yark14 said:

Same surgeon that did John Means' TJ.  With how good Means is looking right now, seems like a good choice.

Dr. Meister also did the surgeries on O’s prospects Zach Peek and Seth Johnson last year — on the same day.  

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Frobby said:

Dr. Meister also did the surgeries on O’s prospects Zach Peek and Seth Johnson last year — on the same day.  

Evidently once you learn how to do it, it's a pretty simple operation in most cases.