Cease vs everyone else

[RZNJ]

3 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Well he wants Ortiz as the second piece

You can’t blame the man for wanting. 

[Pickles]

5 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Well he wants Ortiz as the second piece

We all want something.

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, zweem said:

Would Chicage White Sox take Westburg and Cowser instead???  I think  Ortiz will be a better offensive player to Westburg if given a chance because of the contact skills---less HR power but better OPS.

Yes, I would take that package.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

And Cease could give you 2 years of his average of 4 to 4.5 ERA. See what I did? You can argue the other stats put at some point you have to consistently do it. Right now he’s a 1 season wonder.

His xERA 0.25 points worse than Bradish’s last year.  Is Bradish a bad pitcher?

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

So yes ….hes a MLB starter. But you want ACE return. He’s more likely to be a mid rotation starter with a 4-4.5 starter. And you want a return of 2 top 100 prospects plus. 

Why is he more likely to be a mid rotation starter moving forward?  This infatuation with ERA is really something.

These opinions are wild to me.  Literally every professional insider has come out and said interest in Cease is crazy.  There are mid rotation options available in free agency and yet there are a ton of clubs interested in “mid rotation” Cease.  The good news is major league front offices don’t use ERA as the end all be all and can account for the role shitty defense had on a dude’s ERA.  I really wish Bradish could have played behind our defense last year, because some of you guys would be calling him mediocre right now.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, 24fps said:

I continue to think that's a sensible real-world expectation and the White Sox are an ideal match for the O's at this particular moment.  Granted Ortiz is not going to hit a ton of home runs, but I also think you're significantly underestimating him nonetheless.

And I respect your difference of opinion and stating it without needed to be overly aggressive.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, dystopia said:

He's actually pretty reasonable all things considered. See a lot of Sox fans on Twitter who still think they'll get Holliday. 

Yeah, Holliday is not happening and I chuckle when I see that on Twitter.  And I wouldn’t consider moving Basallo & Mayo either if I was Elias, although I have seen a few Sox fan offers with both of them in it.

[OriolesMagic83]

31 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Yes, I would take that package.

I think that might be the best package that I would do.  Maybe include a 3rd guy outside the top 10.  Other guys are saying that Cowser should be played as a 4th OF and Westburg as a UIF, not because that's their ceiling, but there's no where to play them.  To me, it makes more sense to use excess prospects to obtain the pitching we need. 

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

I think that might be the best package that I would do.  Maybe include a 3rd guy outside the top 10.  Other guys are saying that Cowser should be played as a 4th OF and Westburg as a UIF, not because that's their ceiling, but there's no where to play them.  To me, it makes more sense to use excess prospects to obtain the pitching we need. 

100% agree with you.  Especially when you haves waves of prospects coming up behind these guys.

[Satyr3206]

I would definitely do Westburg  and Cowser.

[Number5]

35 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

These opinions are wild to me.  Literally every professional insider has come out and said interest in Cease is crazy.

Cease is a solid MLB starting pitcher with 2 years of control  who's team has clearly made it known that he's available.  Of course there is a lot of interest.  There is a lot of interest in the Orioles' prospects, as well.  Fans of both teams are hopeful that their team will get maximum value for their assets in any trade.  I'm sure that it is sometimes difficult for GMs to reach a meeting of the minds on a player's value, in which case they need to work out a restructure of the discussed deal that may not include that player.  I think Elias' opinion on Ortiz is likely to be pretty close to what posters on this site are telling you.  If the White Sox GM views Ortiz as you do, it would seem that a deal between the two teams would most likely not have Ortiz included.  I'm sure that isn't all that unusual and the GMs just turn the page and look at working out a trade involving other players/prospects. 

What confuses me is that you seem to rate Ortiz lower than we do and lower than the various sites rate him, but would like a trade of Cease for Cowser and Ortiz.  I'm against that deal because I think 2 prospects rated that highly would be an overpay.  It seems to me, you agree.  You simply rate Ortiz lower.  Seems to me that the answer in such an impasse that would make both parties happy would be to replace Ortiz with another prospect that is lower rated than Ortiz -- which would be of equal value in your mind, since you rate Ortiz lower and still think the proposed trade is a fair one.  Make sense?  Maybe replace Ortiz with Norby.

[forphase1]

4 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

Well he wants Ortiz as the second piece

Works for me,  as long as the first piece is a Norby type!  Only one of Ortiz/Westburg/Cowser/Kjerstad should be traded for Cease.  Let them pick one of them and a couple in the 8-15 range then a lottery pick or two if needed.  But giving up 2 of those is to pricy for the return.  I like Cease, but personally value him as a very solid #3 starter.  Sure, he COULD perform better than that,  but I wouldn't bet on it.  Maybe he reverts back to his 2022 form, but I think it more likely that what we get is what we saw from him in 2023, with an improvement in numbers due to the defense behind him. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by forphase1

[Roll Tide]

8 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

His xERA 0.25 points worse than Bradish’s last year.  Is Bradish a bad pitcher?

Don’t care about fantasy stats and excuse making he had a 4.58 ERA, 1.41 WHIP that was fueled by 4.0 BB per 9. 

[Roll Tide]

6 hours ago, forphase1 said:

Works for me,  as long as the first piece is a Norby type!  Only one of Ortiz/Westburg/Cowser/Kjerstad should be traded for Cease.  Let them pick one of them and a couple in the 8-15 range then a lottery pick or two if needed.  But giving up 2 of those is to pricy for the return.  I like Cease, but personally value him as a very solid #3 starter.  Sure, he COULD perform better than that,  but I wouldn't bet on it.  Maybe he reverts back to his 2022 form, but I think it more likely that what we get is what we saw from him in 2023, with an improvement in numbers due to the defense behind him. 

I agree with you on this ….Except I’m not giving up Kjerstad and I’d prefer to give them a choice of Cowser, Ortiz, or Norby as piece 1. I’d give up Westburg and replace him with Ortiz but I think you lessen his value playing him at 2B. Unless you move Gunnar back to 3B and play Norby at SS. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Roll Tide

[RZNJ]

Pretty good article about Cease.  Keep an open mind and read it.

https://www.southsidesox.com/2023/10/23/23925118/what-went-wrong-dylan-cease-chicago-white-sox-ace-to-mere-mortal-ethan-katz