Cal thinks Holiday moved to fast through the system

[OriolesUpAndDowns]

Just now, Hallas said:

yeah.  Rondale Moore squatted 600 as a freshman.  There's others too.

I agree there are some.  Saquon was power cleaning 400 back at PSU.  I just disagree with the phrasing of regularly. I'm big into Olympic weightlifting where squat numbers are followed closely and I know the time and effort required to put 4 plates on each side of a bar.  

 

 

[Hallas]

24 minutes ago, OriolesUpAndDowns said:

I agree there are some.  Saquon was power cleaning 400 back at PSU.  I just disagree with the phrasing of regularly. I'm big into Olympic weightlifting where squat numbers are followed closely and I know the time and effort required to put 4 plates on each side of a bar.  

 

 

Fair point, but these outliers are squatting like 40% more than Holliday is.  There are likely plenty of guys in the NCAA that can hit Holliday's numbers, and are in his age range.

 

There were like 50+ guys at this year's combine with a 10 yard split of 1.5 or better or 40 times of 4.5 or better, and 1rm squat correlates with both 10 yard split and 40 time, such that if you hit those numbers in 10 or 40, then your mean 1rm squat would be predicted to be about 2.5x body weight, which would be right around 500 lbs for a 200 lb guy.  If you want to call NFL caliber college guys outliers, I guess?  But Holliday is an MLB caliber guy, so he still fits.

 

Elite athletes just aren't normal, man.

Edited May 19 by Hallas

[baltfan]

20 minutes ago, OriolesUpAndDowns said:

I agree there are some.  Saquon was power cleaning 400 back at PSU.  I just disagree with the phrasing of regularly. I'm big into Olympic weightlifting where squat numbers are followed closely and I know the time and effort required to put 4 plates on each side of a bar.  

 

 

His Dad is a big boy and obvious lifter.  Some guys are naturally good squatters.  That’s an impressive number for Holliday, but who knows exactly how legit the actual squat is.  You can find high school kids at nearly every high school about his size with similar squat numbers.  Granted, they will be some of the strongest pound for pound kids, but it’s not a crazy number. 

[OriolesUpAndDowns]

36 minutes ago, Hallas said:

Fair point, but these outliers are squatting like 40% more than Holliday is.  There are likely plenty of guys in the NCAA that can hit Holliday's numbers, and are in his age range.

 

There were like 50+ guys at this year's combine with a 10 yard split of 1.5 or better or 40 times of 4.5 or better, and 1rm squat correlates with both 10 yard split and 40 time, such that if you hit those numbers in 10 or 40, then your mean 1rm squat would be predicted to be about 2.5x body weight, which would be right around 500 lbs for a 200 lb guy.  If you want to call NFL caliber college guys outliers, I guess?  But Holliday is an MLB caliber guy, so he still fits.

 

Elite athletes just aren't normal, man.

Correlation vs. Causation: The study states that there is a correlation between 1RM (one-rep max) squat and performance metrics like the 10-yard split and 40-yard dash times. However, correlation does not imply causation. Just because these variables are correlated does not mean that one causes the other. 

 

[OnlyOneOriole]

4 hours ago, OriolesUpAndDowns said:

I am highly skeptical of those numbers.  That squat number of 455 take a lot of time and effort to get up to.  I would be surprised to if his trainer would let him bench that number do the stress it can put on the shoulder joints.  I would guess he would be doing more dumbbell presses and cables.  

I didn't want to say it, but since your brought it up.....I agree.   I have been involved in the fitness industry as both a person who has worked out with heavy weights for years, a company level as I used to own a supplement company, and a social media level as I know many of the social influencers involved in the fitness industry.

 

I can tell you that squatting that amount and even further dead lifting that amount, even for a fervent power lifter is very very rare.  Let alone for someone who weighs 180 pounds like JH, who is worth many millions,  and what makes it even more unlikely is there is no way IN H E L L that the O's brass is going to let him try and DL 700 pounds.  We are talking snap city when it comes to the back DLing that amount.  Just no way he could even do that based on his build, which is ok but nothing great.  Plus even IF he could, the Os would never let him.    End of story.

 

Here is one of the stronger guys I know on you tube who is around JH's weight, actually 10 pounds more, and it took years and years of training to DL 600 pounds for him.

 

Yet somehow a guy with JHs build is Deadlifting 700 at the age of 20?  Righttttttt lol.

 

 

 

[Hallas]

2 hours ago, OriolesUpAndDowns said:

Correlation vs. Causation: The study states that there is a correlation between 1RM (one-rep max) squat and performance metrics like the 10-yard split and 40-yard dash times. However, correlation does not imply causation. Just because these variables are correlated does not mean that one causes the other. 

 

But it doesn't really matter if correlation implies causation, because we can at least infer that people with fast 40 times have a good chance of being able to squat 2.5x their body weight, regardless of whether there is a causative relationship.  And we have verifiable data thay many football players at skill positions are able to squat large amounts of weight that would be out of reach of many other people even given the same amount of training and diet.  So with both if these things in hand we can safely assume that these lifting numbers are achievable for most elite athletes, which Holliday qualifies as.  So I don't think we should be shocked or skeptical that he's able to pull these numbers. 

 

I'd also be shocked if there wasn't a causative relationship between 40 times and lifting heavy.  Lifting large amounts of weight requires powerful muscles in the legs.  Running really fast also requires powerful muscles in the legs.  You can get in the weeds about muscle fiber type but to me if you're good at one, there's a great chance thay you're at least moderately good at the other.

Edited May 19 by Hallas

[Hallas]

2 hours ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

I didn't want to say it, but since your brought it up.....I agree.   I have been involved in the fitness industry as both a person who has worked out with heavy weights for years, a company level as I used to own a supplement company, and a social media level as I know many of the social influencers involved in the fitness industry.

 

I can tell you that squatting that amount and even further dead lifting that amount, even for a fervent power lifter is very very rare.  Let alone for someone who weighs 180 pounds like JH, who is worth many millions,  and what makes it even more unlikely is there is no way IN H E L L that the O's brass is going to let him try and DL 700 pounds.  We are talking snap city when it comes to the back DLing that amount.  Just no way he could even do that based on his build, which is ok but nothing great.  Plus even IF he could, the Os would never let him.    End of story.

 

Here is one of the stronger guys I know on you tube who is around JH's weight, actually 10 pounds more, and it took years and years of training to DL 600 pounds for him.

 

Yet somehow a guy with JHs build is Deadlifting 700 at the age of 20?  Righttttttt lol.

 

 

 

I mean, I don't want to denigrate your experience, but I think you're underestimating the power potential of elite athletes.  The leg strength required to send a grown man 20 mph from a dead stop is the same leg strength required to do a deadlift, or do a squat.  Can your buddy run a 4.5 40?

Edited May 19 by Hallas

[Roll Tide]

17 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I of course was in the majors at 20, it wasn't too young for me, you understand, but Jackson....

 

 

I'm not in favor of a junior member of the ownership group questioning the FO publicly.

It isn't as if he called them to the floor of course but still, I don't think it's appropriate.

This is no big deal ….He has a right to have an opinion. I believe Holiday was called up too soon. I  also believe the front office was pressured by Hollidays father and agent. 

[OriolesUpAndDowns]

3 hours ago, Hallas said:

But it doesn't really matter if correlation implies causation, because we can at least infer that people with fast 40 times have a good chance of being able to squat 2.5x their body weight, regardless of whether there is a causative relationship.  And we have verifiable data thay many football players at skill positions are able to squat large amounts of weight that would be out of reach of many other people even given the same amount of training and diet.  So with both if these things in hand we can safely assume that these lifting numbers are achievable for most elite athletes, which Holliday qualifies as.  So I don't think we should be shocked or skeptical that he's able to pull these numbers. 

 

I'd also be shocked if there wasn't a causative relationship between 40 times and lifting heavy.  Lifting large amounts of weight requires powerful muscles in the legs.  Running really fast also requires powerful muscles in the legs.  You can get in the weeds about muscle fiber type but to me if you're good at one, there's a great chance thay you're at least moderately good at the other.

Can you share the verifiable data that many NFL skills players are squatting 2.5 their body weight at 20 years old?  

[OriolesMagic83]

Where was it stated that Jackson did a 700 lb deadlift?  Seems like a bad idea for him to lift so heavy in an exercise that puts such a heavy strain on your back.  Calls to mind Dylan Bundy with his 80 lb dumbbells and that did not turn out well. 

[Roll Tide]

5 minutes ago, OriolesUpAndDowns said:

Can you share the verifiable data that many NFL skills players are squatting 2.5 their body weight at 20 years old?  

I could do that in high school as a 17-18 year old weighing 160 lbs. honestly it was no big deal. Now benching more than 225 was tough. Of course I was a football and soccer player. 

[Frobby]

42 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

This is no big deal ….He has a right to have an opinion. I believe Holiday was called up too soon. I  also believe the front office was pressured by Hollidays father and agent. 

He’s an owner.  He has the right to an opinion but he shouldn’t express it in public. 

I totally disagree that Boras or M. Holliday had any bearing on decisions to promote J. Holliday.   The only pressure was created by Jackson’s performance on the field.  

 

[RZNJ]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

He’s an owner.  He has the right to an opinion but he shouldn’t express it in public. 

I totally disagree that Boras or M. Holliday had any bearing on decisions to promote J. Holliday.   The only pressure was created by Jackson’s performance on the field.  

 

But he's expressing his opinion in hindsight and not questioning the actual move to bring him up.   He not saying he wouldn't have brought him up.  He's saying that since he struggled so much MAYBE he needed more AAA time.  Maybe he was affected by the hoopla.   He was questioned on why Holliday struggled.   He gave the same guesses the rest of the world is giving, including Elias.    His answer equates to "I don't really know but it could be this".   It's not even close to "At the time, I thought they called him up too soon".

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

But he's expressing his opinion in hindsight and not questioning the actual move to bring him up.   He not saying he wouldn't have brought him up.  He's saying that since he struggled so much MAYBE he needed more AAA time.  Maybe he was affected by the hoopla.   He was questioned on why Holliday struggled.   He gave the same guesses the rest of the world is giving, including Elias.    His answer equates to "I don't really know but it could be this".   It's not even close to "At the time, I thought they called him up too soon".

I agree with your characterization.  See my earlier post before all the expert analysis of Holliday’s weightlifting exploits.  I’m just making a general observation that Cal needs to be more careful now.  This comment doesn’t particularly concern me.  

[Jim'sKid26]

17 hours ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

I am lost here....completely and utterly lost. 

Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward finding a solution.

Cal isn't engaged in scouting or player development. He's a HoF player who happens to have been an Oriole but he doesn't follow the O's prospects with even a modicum of the intensity @Tony-OH does. When I want to know something about an Orioles prospect I come to the Hangout and I look for what @Tony-OH has written about them, first and foremost. I read BA, the Athletic and Fangraphs avidly. But if I have a question about an Orioles prospect, I value Tony Pente's opinion and seek it out. Been doing it since 1996; haven't been disappointed.