This team isn’t winning anything unless it trades Holliday, Bassallo or Mayo

[sportsfan8703]

1 hour ago, DirtyBird said:

Seems pretty positive. We have acquired 3 top level prospects. We could use one help fill needs that we have now and are on the horizon for the next couple years.

Why does it have to be those 3?  Why can't it be others in the system?  If you take away our big 3, we still have one of the best farm systems in baseball, and maybe even the best still.  

[Alasdaire]

2 hours ago, Orioles0615 said:

They just traded the rookie of the year front runner 

That's not how Joey was regarded at the time. He was seen as an older, glove-first prospect who had to prove he could sustain production at the plate. The O's also likely didn't have a ton of leverage in negotiations involving Ortiz because it was plain to see they were struggling to find room for him with Gunnar/Holliday being preordained to inherit two infield spots and the front office seemingly rating Westburg above Joey.

All of this is why the premise of this thread is nonsense. People here were calling for the Orioles to send away Ortiz for a bag of chips last year the same as how they're now tripping over themselves in calling for prospects to be cast aside now. But in the real world, the Orioles waited for the right opportunity to trade Joey in the form of Corbin Burnes even if it meant doing the deal in the spring rather than at the break, and it didn't take trading away one of the prospect who is actually projected to be a rookie of the year front runner.

[DirtyBird]

7 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

 If you take away our big 3, we still have one of the best farm systems in baseball, and maybe even the best still.  

This is not true - not even close. We have one top 100 guy outside of those three and he's a 25 year old who hasn't been able to get at bats on our roster.

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Why does it have to be those 3?  Why can't it be others in the system?  If you take away our big 3, we still have one of the best farm systems in baseball, and maybe even the best still.  

If you take away the top 3, our system is still good but it’s probably in the 12-20 range.

[LookitsPuck]

17 hours ago, dtk9119 said:

The pitching injuries have been unfortunate for sure. But Elias ignoring SP high in the draft the last few years is coming back to bite this organization.

Is it, though?

Which SP would you have drafted high in 2021, 2022, 2023 that would legitimately be helping them out right now? 

4 members of the rotation this year were traded for by Elias: Burnes, Bradish, Irvin, Povich. Another rotation possibility was also traded for by him: McDermott. 

You can build a rotation without changing the existing strategy, and I'm not entirely convinced that it hampered them. They have pieces to trade.

To me it's less about drafting and more about going into this year relying on Means/Wells to hold down a rotation spot. 

[DirtyBird]

52 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

If you take away the top 3, our system is still good but it’s probably in the 12-20 range.

Towards 12 if our 17-19 year old international kids are highly regarded, towards 20 if they are not.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

Towards 12 if our 17-19 year old international kids are highly regarded, towards 20 if they are not.

I tend to agree with that.  Overall, a middling system without those guys but that’s still pretty damn impressive considering those guys gone and all of the players that have been moved up to the majors.  And I guess that includes Kjerstad too but he won’t likely have prospect status for too much longer.

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Why does it have to be those 3?  Why can't it be others in the system?  If you take away our big 3, we still have one of the best farm systems in baseball, and maybe even the best still.  

Wait. If you take away our top 3 we have about 1 top 100 prospect. How is that better with or without our top 3 than the Cubs 7 top 100 prospects?

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, Alasdaire said:

That's not how Joey was regarded at the time. He was seen as an older, glove-first prospect who had to prove he could sustain production at the plate. The O's also likely didn't have a ton of leverage in negotiations involving Ortiz because it was plain to see they were struggling to find room for him with Gunnar/Holliday being preordained to inherit two infield spots and the front office seemingly rating Westburg above Joey.

All of this is why the premise of this thread is nonsense. People here were calling for the Orioles to send away Ortiz for a bag of chips last year the same as how they're now tripping over themselves in calling for prospects to be cast aside now. But in the real world, the Orioles waited for the right opportunity to trade Joey in the form of Corbin Burnes even if it meant doing the deal in the spring rather than at the break, and it didn't take trading away one of the prospect who is actually projected to be a rookie of the year front runner.

When you say "people" are you referring to multiple posters (like more than 1 or 2)? If you could you provide examples? Because I don't remember that at all coming from multiple posters.

I don't consider trading Ortiz as part of a package for the best pitcher that we have roster in decades "a bag of chips". I call that VERY GOOD value.

Also, when you say people are "now tripping over themselves in calling for pospects to be cast aside now" are you talking about posters desiring to see the pitching staff improved upon by adding more top shelf pitching talent? Or something else?

[Malike]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

When you say "people" are you referring to multiple posters (like more than 1 or 2)? If you could you provide examples? Because I don't remember that at all coming from multiple posters.

I don't consider trading Ortiz as part of a package for the best pitcher that we have roster in decades "a bag of chips". I call that VERY GOOD value.

Also, when you say people are "now tripping over themselves in calling for pospects to be cast aside now" are you talking about posters desiring to see the pitching staff improved upon by adding more top shelf pitching talent? Or something else?

It's not worth the research to post-dive for hours, but if you think it was only 1 or 2 people who wanted to trade Ortiz before Westburg, Cowser, Kjerstad, Mayo, Basallo, or Holliday then you don't pay attention to what you are reading here.

[Bemorewins]

1 minute ago, Malike said:

It's not worth the research to post-dive for hours, but if you think it was only 1 or 2 people who wanted to trade Ortiz before Westburg, Cowser, Kjerstad, Mayo, Basallo, or Holliday then you don't pay attention to what you are reading here.

The poster didn't say to trade Ortiz. The poster said and I quote "People here were calling for the Orioles to send away Ortiz for a bag of chips last year".

I don't know how you read that. But I read that implying wanting to give Joey Ortiz away for nothing or something of very low value, since the implication with the analogy used is that "a bag of chips" can be acquired for almost next to nothing and are a dime a dozen.

I had no problem with the O's trading Ortiz and thought it was a good idea before it happened. And still do.

With the type of position player talent that we have, Ortiz while good is not at all missed. And certainly not in comparison if we did not have Corbin Burnes. IMO Burnes is much more valuable/important to the O's competing for a World Series than Joey Ortiz would be.

[Alasdaire]

26 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

The poster didn't say to trade Ortiz. The poster said and I quote "People here were calling for the Orioles to send away Ortiz for a bag of chips last year".

People wanted to trade Joey Ortiz at the deadline last year. Whether for a bag of chips or otherwise--it had to happen right then and there because the Orioles were quite clearly on the cusp of winning it all last season. And it didn't matter how good Ortiz could be since he was quite clearly outclassed by other prospects/players.

As it turned out, Burnes was a better option than anything available at the deadline last year and was only available because the O's waited. How do I know that? Because if the Orioles did the deal for Burnes in the spring, they obviously would have done it last summer, so it wasn't available last year but was because the Orioles waited. As it also turned out, Ortiz would be starting at 2B/3B on the Orioles right now if he hadn't been traded, so he wasn't superfluous. And even if the O's had traded Ortiz for a starter last year, no starter acquired at the deadline last would have pushed the Orioles over the hump given that they were swept in the first round of the playoffs.

Those same people are now pushing for the Orioles to trade prospects who are quite simply outclassed by other players and have no use to the Orioles--and it has to happen now!

[Bemorewins]

4 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

People wanted to trade Joey Ortiz at the deadline last year. Whether for a bag of chips or otherwise--it had to happen right then and there because the Orioles were quite clearly on the cusp of winning it all last season. And it didn't matter how good Ortiz could be since he was quite clearly outclassed by other prospects/players.

As it turned out, Burnes was a better option than anything available at the deadline last year and was only available because the O's waited. How do I know that? Because if the Orioles did the deal for Burnes in the spring, they obviously would have done it last summer, so it wasn't available last year but was because the Orioles waited. As it also turned out, Ortiz would be starting at 2B/3B on the Orioles right now if he hadn't been traded, so he wasn't superfluous. And even if the O's had traded Ortiz for a starter last year, no starter acquired at the deadline last would have pushed the Orioles over the hump given that they were swept in the first round of the playoffs.

Those same people are now pushing for the Orioles to trade prospects who are quite simply outclassed by other players and have no use to the Orioles--and it has to happen now!

If Ortiz was starting at 2B or 3B. Then what would you do with Holliday and Mayo?

No matter which you/I slice they have to make trades (like the Ortiz one). There is an overabundance of position player talent in the organization and there is not enough/requisite pitching talent. 

[DirtyBird]

6 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

And even if the O's had traded Ortiz for a starter last year, no starter acquired at the deadline last would have pushed the Orioles over the hump given that they were swept in the first round of the playoffs.

Do we know that there weren't discussions involving Ortiz and starters who weren't moved at the deadline? Maybe a team that stood pat and wouldn't give Elias what he wanted would have benefited by doing so.

[Alasdaire]

Just now, Bemorewins said:

If Ortiz was starting at 2B or 3B. Then what would you do with Holliday and Mayo?

No matter which you/I slice they have to make trades (like the Ortiz one). There is an overabundance of position player talent in the organization and there is not enough/requisite pitching talent. 

For one, Joey's trade value would be even higher now than it was last summer/spring. So not only would we have a positional upgrade defensively and offensively for this season, but even making the massive assumption that there's going to be a logjam that renders Ortiz useless long term (which should not be assumed), he could now fetch an even bigger bag of chips than before.