What did DT do wrong tonight?

[LookitsPuck]

Nevermind the fact that Huff was safe at second and people have been complaining that Roberts wasn't stealing enough.

Again, the Orioles got FOUR HITS ALL GAME YESTERDAY. That is why we lost.

You keep defending the hit and run tactic that the Orioles have NOT been successful much this year. If anything, the amount that they've been unsuccessful has REALLY hurt this team. I can't count the number of hit and runs with Scott/Wigginton/Mora is up and a guy like Huff/Scott/Mora is running where they've been caught dead in their tracks.

Dave> STOP THE DAMN HIT AND RUN. It's such a terrible tactic when used at such an alarming failure rate as the Orioles. That and I don't like it to begin with.

[LookitsPuck]

Inconsistency from DT:

He very rarely (hasn't in May if I recall) allows JJ to go more than 1 inning, but he'll put JJ in back to back games, even though he's been ineffective as such. But what happens today? He shuttles him out there in a close game after pitching yesterday.

Anybody tackle this? Apparently it's okay for Trembley to use Johnson on back to back days, but heaven forbid if Johnson has to pitch for more than an inning.

[Mackus]

Anybody tackle this? Apparently it's okay for Trembley to use Johnson on back to back days, but heaven forbid if Johnson has to pitch for more than an inning.

Last year Johnson pitched 12 times on consecutive days.

Those 12 appearances he had the following line:

Split  	G  	PA  	AB  	R  	H  	2B  	3B  	HR  	SB  	CS  	BB  	SO  	SO/BB  	BA  	OBP  	SLG  	OPS  	TB  	GDP  	HBP  	SH  	SF  	IBB  	BAbip  	tOPS+  	sOPS+0 Days 12 	63 	55 	1 	12 	0 	0 	0 	0 	0 	6 	7 	1.17 	.218 	.306 	.218 	.525 	12 	3 	1 	1 	0 	1 	.250 	93 	53

1 run in 15 innings on days he was pitching for the second straight day.

He's had 4 appearances so far this year on back-to-back days, and struggled a lot.

I think its likely that he'll be fine, and that its more of a coincidence. Splits are tough for relievers because its such small sample sizes, but I don't really think Johnson has trouble going on back-to-back days.

[LookitsPuck]

Not so much his effectiveness (although that was one of my points), but why doesn't he allow him to go more than 1 inning? If he's good enough for back to back days, he can certainly pitch more than 1 inning. He's an effective reliever, let him stay out there longer a la Baez.

[El Gordo]

Not so much his effectiveness (although that was one of my points), but why doesn't he allow him to go more than 1 inning? If he's good enough for back to back days, he can certainly pitch more than 1 inning. He's an effective reliever, let him stay out there longer a la Baez.

Don't know if it matters, but JJ had shoulder impingement issues earlier this year, so he may want to limit how much he works. If he uses him 2 innings he may feel he has to give him a day in between like Baez.

[LookitsPuck]

Don't know if it matters, but JJ had shoulder impingement issues earlier this year, so he may want to limit how much he works. If he uses him 2 innings he may feel he has to give him a day in between like Baez.

So warming him up, making him pitch an inning+, then the next day warming him up, and making him pitch an inning+ is better than warming him up, and making him pitch a couple innings or more?

Unless he's pidgeonholing him as a 1 inning guy, I fail to see why Johnson can't go more innings, unless Trembley thinks he's more valuable as a guy who can pitch back to back games compared to a guy who can go more than an inning.

[El Gordo]

So warming him up, making him pitch an inning+, then the next day warming him up, and making him pitch an inning+ is better than warming him up, and making him pitch a couple innings or more?

Unless he's pidgeonholing him as a 1 inning guy, I fail to see why Johnson can't go more innings, unless Trembley thinks he's more valuable as a guy who can pitch back to back games compared to a guy who can go more than an inning.

DT has talked about not liking to get a guy up, have him pitch, then sit, and get up again, if they have had arm issues. But I am sure you know best.

[Since'54]

DT has talked about not liking to get a guy up, have him pitch, then sit, and get up again, if they have had arm issues. But I am sure you know best.

You are ignoring what I think is the real question here -- Why does Trembley repeatedly bring in a reliever, see him pitch very effectively, and then replace him the next inning? And then do the same thing again until he eventually finds a reliever who is having a bad day.

Shades of Sam Perlozzo. Brainless fascination with the idea that certain pitchers should pitch certain innings. If a pitcher is blowing people away, leave him there for one, two, or six innings until he weakens.

[RShack]

You are ignoring what I think is the real question here -- Why does Trembley repeatedly bring in a reliever' date=' see him pitch very effectively, and then replace him the next inning? And then do the same thing again until he eventually finds a reliever who is having a bad day.

Shades of Sam Perlozzo. Brainless fascination with the idea that certain pitchers should pitch certain innings. If a pitcher is blowing people away, leave him there for one, two, or six innings until he weakens.[/quote']

It's not the same as Perlozzo. I agree Perlozzo did that. If the starter got chased after 4 or 5, he'd use 1 guy each inning for the last 4 or 5 innings. What DT is doing is different. He's following the by-now-standard formula. Now, you might not like the formula, but it is what it is, and it's the standard thing that most everybody does. You have a 7th inning guy, an 8th inning guy, and a closer. Not saying that's best, but it's an MLB thing, not a DT thing.

The other night, in response to a question from Thorne, Palmer basically endorsed the idea. He thought it could/should be Baez in the 7th, JJ in the 8th, and either George or Ray in the 9th, depending on the situation. Of course, this implies that your SP gives you 6, which we know is iffy. If the SP gets chased earlier, DT will use a guy for more than just 1 inning.

[LookitsPuck]

DT has talked about not liking to get a guy up, have him pitch, then sit, and get up again, if they have had arm issues. But I am sure you know best.

Way to detract from the argument and actual add something substantial. But that's typical El "I love Dave Trembley" Gordo.

I just think it's very inconsistent Dave Trembley. Right up there with him favouring veterans in the past, and his inconsistency with the "earn your job" position he took (which is a bunch of boloney).

You don't think it's a bit inconsistent to shove a guy out there 2 days in a row, but not put the guy out there for more than an inning, especially in games where we need effective pitchers? Trembley burns through the bullpen and doesn't put guys out there long enough. I thought this was common knowledge, and has certainly been a nitpick (and a valid one) of members on this forum.

But I'm sure you know best. See how ignorant that sounds?

[LookitsPuck]

You are ignoring what I think is the real question here -- Why does Trembley repeatedly bring in a reliever' date=' see him pitch very effectively, and then replace him the next inning? And then do the same thing again until he eventually finds a reliever who is having a bad day.

Shades of Sam Perlozzo. Brainless fascination with the idea that certain pitchers should pitch certain innings. If a pitcher is blowing people away, leave him there for one, two, or six innings until he weakens.[/quote']

I so agree, then you can save your effective arms for games where it's necessary.

It just is ridiculous to see Trembley put guys like Baez in during blow out games, and take out guys when they're pitching effectively way too soon. This should not happen. Preserve your guys, don't shuttle them out there every day (see: what happened to Sherrill last year [OVERUSE in the games department]).

I think it'd be best to put a guy like Jim Johnson (if pitching effectively) out there for 2-3 innings, instead of burning through the rotation. Dave Trembley needs to learn leverage. He's not a brilliant bullpen guy, that's for sure.

Leverage statistics exist for a reason. Use them, Dave.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I so agree, then you can save your effective arms for games where it's necessary.

It just is ridiculous to see Trembley put guys like Baez in during blow out games, and take out guys when they're pitching effectively way too soon. This should not happen. Preserve your guys, don't shuttle them out there every day (see: what happened to Sherrill last year [OVERUSE in the games department]).

I think it'd be best to put a guy like Jim Johnson (if pitching effectively) out there for 2-3 innings, instead of burning through the rotation. Dave Trembley needs to learn leverage. He's not a brilliant bullpen guy, that's for sure.

Leverage statistics exist for a reason. Use them, Dave.

Pssh. Why use statistics when you can just use an unwritten "book" to make your decisions for you and have people willing to defend your laziness no matter how bad things get?

I mean, it doesn't matter that the best managers in the history of the sport, including the one that all Orioles managers are judged against, actually thought about their decisions and often changed the sport (and rewrote the aforementioned "book") due to their success. It worked for teams with different pitchers in different situations, so it must work for everyone.

[El Gordo]

Way to detract from the argument and actual add something substantial. But that's typical El "I love Dave Trembley" Gordo.

I just think it's very inconsistent Dave Trembley. Right up there with him favouring veterans in the past, and his inconsistency with the "earn your job" position he took (which is a bunch of boloney).

You don't think it's a bit inconsistent to shove a guy out there 2 days in a row, but not put the guy out there for more than an inning, especially in games where we need effective pitchers? Trembley burns through the bullpen and doesn't put guys out there long enough. I thought this was common knowledge, and has certainly been a nitpick (and a valid one) of members on this forum.

But I'm sure you know best. See how ignorant that sounds?

It's not ignorant when applied to me, I do know best.You are ignoring the point. If a guy gets up throws an innning then sits while his team bats has his arm get cold, then gets up and throws again, that places a different kind of stress than if he throws one inning and is done for the day. I've heard DT say he is concerned about doing this, when a guy has arm issues, as does JJ.

[LookitsPuck]

It's not ignorant when applied to me, I do know best.You are ignoring the point. If a guy gets up throws an innning then sits while his team bats has his arm get cold, then gets up and throws again, that places a different kind of stress than if he throws one inning and is done for the day. I've heard DT say he is concerned about doing this, when a guy has arm issues, as does JJ.

Then you're ignoring what I'm saying. I'm advocating the man going out and pitching MORE than one inning, rather than bringing him in on back to back days. Hell, even a combination of pitching more than one inning here and there and possibly bringing him in on back to back days would work. This horse radish of bringing him in for one out or only one inning, and then bringing in another reliever, then another, then another is just killing the bullpen. And it's another reason why the 13 man bullpen is just a bunch of malarkey.

If he's worried about a guy going out and pitching an inning, then sitting down, then going back out, then why did he let Johnson go 1 2/3 innings against Tampa on May 14th? Why did he let Johnson go 1 1/3 innings on May 10th against the Yankees (back to back days, nonetheless)? Hell, back on April 14th he let him go 2 innings against the Rangers. I just don't think your argument holds water. Johnson can go more than one inning. If Trembley had a concern about that, he wouldn't be shuttling him out there for a 1/3 of an inning after pitching an inning, and such and such.

[Sports Guy]

BB shouldn't have faced Cano in the 7th.