What did DT do wrong tonight?

[El Gordo]

If DT knew McCrory was going back after the game (and it seemed that he did based on his postgame presser), he couldn't really wait though, could he? Also, maybe he wanted to see how he'd do in a game that was still within reach. I'd much rather him use McCrory in a game down by two than a game up by less than six. I wouldn't be happy if we took a game we were winning and put it up for grabs.

Again, I'm not saying I do the same thing in that situation, but I also acknowledge that I don't have near the information on the rest of the relievers, the short term plan, long term plan, McCrory's confidence,etc... as DT does.

I started this thread because I questioned Trembley’s motives for leaving McCrory in despite the fact that he had obviously lost his control - 3 walks - and then started serving up BP fastballs that came whizzing back past him on the mound. It wasn’t in hindsight that I questioned Trembley’s inaction, it was while McCrory was quickly sliding into trouble. He obviously had lost command of his pitches, and the game was still on the line.

IMO, the suggestions being offered that Trembley left McCrory in to “discover himself”....or for Trembley to evaluate him….or because he was being sent down….or whatever…is pure BS. The object of baseball is to win the game….EVERY game…and to do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to achieve that goal. To do or think otherwise is disingenuous to the players, the fans, and to the integrity of the game itself.

All of us have questioned various moves Trembley has made, usually with the full advantage of 20-20 hindsight, and I have no doubt that will continue. Along with hypothesizing trades, it is a favorite OH past-time. But there are some moves, or the lack thereof, that lack supporting logic, and I think this was one of them.

I am a Trembley fan, and I have always thought he is the right man for the job right now…and maybe the right man for the future as well. But when I see what appears (to me) to be such an obvious managing gaffe, it raised the question in my mind -- why did he leave McCrory in? I was hoping that someone would ask that question in the post-game interview, but they didn’t….or I didn’t here it…and I also found that odd because of the way the game ended. It was almost as if the reporters were told not to ask it.

McCrory pitched well in the 9th. He walked two guys to start the 9th but his fastball had a lot of life and they were 3-2 walks not 4 P B's. He then got a K and a GB. so at that point do you leave him in or burn JJ or GS? He then walks Bartlett throwing a WP in the process and allowing a run. So now its 5-2. Is it a no brainer to burn JJ. I don't think so. After he gives up the next single then the game is out of reach.

[DrungoHazewood]

The object of baseball is to win the game….EVERY game…and to do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to achieve that goal. To do or think otherwise is disingenuous to the players, the fans, and to the integrity of the game itself.

I couldn't disagree more with this. You simply cannot go through a 162-game, six month long season playing every game as though it's the 7th game of the World Series. It's absurd to burn through every option to try to overcome impossible odds in big deficits late in games, only to be unable to use those assets in a winnable game tomorrow.

[RShack]

The object of baseball is to win the game….EVERY game…and to do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to achieve that goal. To do or think otherwise is disingenuous to the players, the fans, and to the integrity of the game itself.

So, why do you think Earl brought in Elrod (of all people) to pitch in the 5th and left him in for 2+ innings? Did Earl not care about winning?

[olehippi]

McCrory pitched well in the 9th. He walked two guys to start the 9th but his fastball had a lot of life and they were 3-2 walks not 4 P B's. He then got a K and a GB. so at that point do you leave him in or burn JJ or GS? He then walks Bartlett throwing a WP in the process and allowing a run. So now its 5-2. Is it a no brainer to burn JJ. I don't think so. After he gives up the next single then the game is out of reach.

So you don't think the two walks to start the 9th inning in a then 4-2 game wasn't cause for concern? I think a red flag should have gone up, especially since it was apparent in the 8th inning (walk to Zobrist w/ Longoria on deck)) that his control wasn't all that sharp.

Also, by the time he walked Bartlett with a wild pitch that scored a run (and with the score now 5-2 as you note), McCrory was already at 25 pitches in the inning, More importantly, before the WP ball-4 to Barlett, he had thrown 2 other pitches in the dirt that Zaun blocked. IMO, after this walk is the point that a pitching change should have been made. And an argument could probably be made thatTrembley should have taken him out after the first two walks.

At 5-2, the game was still on the line. Maybe 3 pitches, and definitely10 pitches, later, it wasn't. As I said, I like Trembley, but this was a disturbingly bad decision that definitely raised some doubts in my mind.

[El Gordo]

So you don't think the two walks to start the 9th inning in a then 4-2 game wasn't cause for concern? I think a red flag should have gone up, especially since it was apparent in the 8th inning (walk to Zobrist w/ Longoria on deck)) that his control wasn't all that sharp.

Also, by the time he walked Bartlett with a wild pitch that scored a run (and with the score now 5-2 as you note), McCrory was already at 25 pitches in the inning, More importantly, before the WP ball-4 to Barlett, he had thrown 2 other pitches in the dirt that Zaun blocked. IMO, after this walk is the point that a pitching change should have been made. And an argument could probably be made thatTrembley should have taken him out after the first two walks.

At 5-2, the game was still on the line. Maybe 3 pitches, and definitely10 pitches, later, it wasn't. As I said, I like Trembley, but this was a disturbingly bad decision that definitely raised some doubts in my mind.

How long does it take to get a guy up and ready in the pen? More than 2 batters? After the 2 walks he got 2 outs. Then he was wild again. I think you could argue he might bring in a RP at that point, but again it is most likely JJ, and then you are burning him for tomorrow for a 5-2 game. No guarantee he won't give up more runs, in which case he is wasted for the next day.

[olehippi]

I couldn't disagree more with this. You simply cannot go through a 162-game, six month long season playing every game as though it's the 7th game of the World Series. It's absurd to burn through every option to try to overcome impossible odds in big deficits late in games, only to be unable to use those assets in a winnable game tomorrow.

Jon, it sometimes amazes me how people can read something, and then make quantum leaps of assumption. But then, that almost seems to be the norm on OH. In this case, I would truly love to know the logic behind the tenuious “path” taken from Point “A” (my quoted statement), to Point “B” (your conclusion).

I did not say, or even infer, that a team should -- “go through a 162-game, six month long season playing every game as though it's the 7th game of the World Series.“ I simply stated that the object of baseball, and the ultimate goal in all of sports, is to play to win every game….AND that it is incumbent upon the manager and the players to do everything they can to achieve that goal. Perhaps I should have stated “within reason”, but I “assumed” that using common sense was a gimme. Shame on me.

You then state: “It's absurd to burn through every option to try to overcome impossible odds in big deficits late in games, only to be unable to use those assets in a winnable game tomorrow.” OK, I can agree with that….if the score is, let’s say, 12-2 in the 9th inning. Again, common sense enters the picture here and says….yeah, that’s a reasonably insurmountable deficit.

But, I was talking about last nights game, where the score was 4-2 going into the 9th inning…..and was still only 5-2 when Trembley made a critical, and IMO questionable, decision to keep McCrory in the game. Moments later, the score was 8-2 and only then did the “impossible odds” you mention begin to creep into the picture.

The fact that the Orioles scored 4 runs in the bottom of the 9th truly wasn’t a factor in my questioning of Trembley’s failure to remove McCrory, although it definitely high-lighted the point I tried to make. And my point was that in my mind, it was an illogical decision.

And I’ll stand by my statement that not trying to win is disingenuous to the players, the fans, and to the integrity of the baseball.

[olehippi]

So, why do you think Earl brought in Elrod (of all people) to pitch in the 5th and left him in for 2+ innings? Did Earl not care about winning?

Great! But out of context....what were the circumstances? Was the game already a blowout? Was it the first, or second, game of a double-header? Did they play a 15 inning game the night before and the BP was shot? Did Elrod make a bet with Earl that he could pitch, too?

Or maybe Earl had a rough night and was just feeling a little crazy?.....

[Mike B]

After McCrory gave up a few runs, Trembley figured that the game was likely out or reach anyway, so why waste anymore fresh arms?

I was actually in agreement with Dave.

Agreed. JJ and GS and Bass were pretty used up the last 2 games. Baez has not thrown back to back yet and Ray had already pitched. That left Walker and McCrory. Do you think anyone would have complained if he pulled McCrory and used a tired JJ or GS or worse yet Walker in a close game. He did not give up like some said. He went with what he thought was his best shot to stay close.

[LookitsPuck]

So, why do you think Earl brought in Elrod (of all people) to pitch in the 5th and left him in for 2+ innings? Did Earl not care about winning?

There are obviously times you need to swallow your tongue, and worry about tomorrow, but those are mostly in blow outs. A 4-2 game is not a blowout....

[olehippi]

How long does it take to get a guy up and ready in the pen? More than 2 batters? After the 2 walks he got 2 outs. Then he was wild again. I think you could argue he might bring in a RP at that point, but again it is most likely JJ, and then you are burning him for tomorrow for a 5-2 game. No guarantee he won't give up more runs, in which case he is wasted for the next day.

What difference does it make if you give up and lose the game today so that you might win tomorrow? OK, you might end up going 1-1. But, if things don't go as planned, you might be 0-2.

The object is to be 2-0.

[ChesterPeake]

The fact that Trembley doesn't usually pay attention to the odds has and will continue to cost the Orioles games. He often uses his better relievers in games the O's have tiny chances of winning or losing, making them unavailable or tired for games that the O's have much better odds. DT does a lot of things well, but he really needs to redefine his pitchers' roles to include leverage. The information is available in a few mouse clicks, it's irresponsible to not use it.

Well put. That, in a nutshell, is the primary issue with how he manages the relievers. Thanks to you, I now realize the true cause of my complaint.

[El Gordo]

DT was brilliant tonight putting Izzy in the 2 hole. :laughlol: Glad to see him leave JJ in for 2 and not come back to Baez who was struggling. Stayed with Guts as long as he could, though some will say too long.

[RShack]

Great! But out of context....what were the circumstances? Was the game already a blowout?

Nah, they were only down by 18 ;-)

If you never read this before, check it out, it's a hoot.

[Frobby]

Actually I was afraid he might have Guthrie come out for the 6th. Nothing really to nitpick tonight. I thought maybe he should have taken Walker out when Butler came up, but then again, I thought he should take Walker out when Guillen came up the next inning and he struck Guillen out. Baez didn't look good for the first time in a long time but he got through it.

Because of the heavy use of the pen the previous 2 days, I think DT was determined to get a full inning from Walker. Now he has Ray, Bass and Sherrill reasonably fresh for tomorrow. Not to mention Hendrickson.

[El Gordo]

Because of the heavy use of the pen the previous 2 days, I think DT was determined to get a full inning from Walker. Now he has Ray, Bass and Sherrill reasonably fresh for tomorrow. Not to mention Hendrickson.

With Eaton starting he'll need them all.