Viviano Show Question O's/Phils

[Old#5fan]

Well I don't see the need to bring up comments from the past everytime he uses the flawed logic. I don't see a need to say anything, just move on and this won't happen.

I'm not even arguing with much of what you keep saying. I made a simple point and backed it up, it does not pertain to you and others getting into with him about Werth vs Markakis as a base-runner.

Bringing up some past instances where I was clearly wrong is a bit of a reach in his argument as he also conveniently overlook times where I was in fact, correct. I.E. when I was the first here on the OH to predict Scott was about to go into a major slump. Furthermore, if you want to go way, way back I predicted Boller was a bust immediately. So for your every wrong example I could probably give you one where I was right.

[Crazysilver03]

Bringing up some past instances where I was clearly wrong is a bit of a reach in his argument as he also conveniently overlook times where I was in fact, correct. I.E. when I was the first here on the OH to predict Scott was about to go into a major slump. Furthermore, if you want to go way, way back I predicted Boller was a bust immediately. So for your every wrong example I could probably give you one where I was right.

I thought you don't remember most of your post? :scratchchinhmm:

You predicted a streaky hitter would be streaky, what a great prophecy. You predicted Payton would hit more HR than Scott and you were proved wrong.

As much as people would like to get this thread on back, I don't think it is going to happen so can we just close this show down?

[mweb]

BACK. ON. TOPIC.

If we were giving the Phil's a DH would you use Scott over their options (Stairs... and who else?).

How about Reimold? Would Reimold be a fit as a DH for them. Because I think we could send someone to the DH spot that's better then what they have.

Reimold or Roberts if Utley didn't move to third for him would be the best options at DH.

[VTmook213]

[QUOTXBT% (extra base taken on a single or double)

M-41% W-36%

Not all that significance a difference - half a point to Markakis (concede).

1st S3 (Times as a runner on first and a single is hit and reaches third or scores)

M-12 W-9

Again, not all that significance a difference - half a point to Markakis - (concede)

PO (Runner picked off)

M-0 W-3

This is not something to show good baserunner. Brooks never got picked off either so what? Point should go to Werth for his VAST difference in steals and attempts.

RS% (percentage of times as runner player scores)

M-11% W-10%

So small a difference as to be statistically insignificant. tie.2nd SH (Times on second and runner scores on hit)

M-21 W-11/QUOTE]

This is the one stat where I do concede a point to Markakis.

Bottom line is if you look at the steals and low percentage of getting caught along with these stats, Werth is clearly the OVERALL BETTER BASE RUNNER!

Wait ... by your own measuring system, Markakis just won ... yet you still contend that "Werth is clearly the OVERALL BETTER BASE RUNNER!"?!

Markakis points: 2

Werth points: 1

Not to mention that Markakis wins 3/5 categories, while Werth wins just 1/5. Perhaps a better way to phrase what you are saying is that Werth is clearly by far a better a base-stealer, while Markakis is a better all around base-runner? Unless, of course, you are weighting the ability to steal bases 3x as much as the ability to take an extra base/score more often. In which case we just view what defines someone as a base-runner fundamentally differently and we will just have to agree to disagree.

[ShaneDawg85]

Ah, nothing like leaving work in the afternoon, coming back later in the evening and seeing the thread balloon by 7-8 pages.

And the beat goes on...

[amateurfan]

OldFan's overstatements were specifically about baserunning...he used the same methodology as he always does to reach an extremely biased and overstated conclusion.

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

Of course people were more vigorous because of his past history...but it was deserved. Because he was doing what he ALWAYS has done.

To act like he had somehow changed his approach is just wrong. And to defend him is laughable.

You've shown throughout this thread that other posters would be better off without your help. OldFan makes mistakes in coming to his conclusions, but that is not relevant to how this thread got off topic. You, and others, began antagonizing OF before any comments about base running. Your argument is circuitous and disorganized. There are many instances when OF deserves the harsh tone he receives. The discussion about base running in this thread is an instance of that, but that's not what the discussion between you and me has been about. You've changed several times in order to excuse yourself. That's your business.

CrazySilver - I handled "reactionary" very poorly several months ago. Sorry for that.

[ejf1025]

You've shown throughout this thread that other posters would be better off without your help. OldFan makes mistakes in coming to his conclusions, but that is not relevant to how this thread got off topic. You, and others, began antagonizing OF before any comments about base running. Your argument is circuitous and disorganized. There are many instances when OF deserves the harsh tone he receives. The discussion about base running in this thread is an instance of that, but that's not what the discussion between you and me has been about. You've changed several times in order to excuse yourself. That's your business.

CrazySilver - I handled "reactionary" very poorly several months ago. Sorry for that.

Really...please show me where I antagonized him prior to his baserunning comments. Please cite the specific post that came before him making any allusion to baserunning. If it helps, his baserunning comment came at post #8...my first post was #20.

I guess I did this through subtle suggestion?

[foxfield]

Really...please show me where I antagonized him prior to his baserunning comments. Please cite the specific post that came before him making any allusion to baserunning. If it helps, his baserunning comment came at post #8...my first post was #20.

I guess I did this through subtle suggestion?

I think the point is that you have been antagonizing him for 11 pages of a thread. This has been a very interesting thread because of the depth of analysis that has been inbetween an unnecessary side bar.

The original question Werth over Nick in the Phillies lineup is debateable, but in fairness, right now goes to Werth.

His particular points about baserunning do not merit this continued unbecoming behavior on your part. You and others proved him wrong on the baserunning. And finally, he eliminated himself in the Werth 1 Nick 2 analysis where he still picked Werth.

But continuing to beat on him for his erroneous rationale doesn't change the fact that his original point is correct.

Now I wish we could get back to serious debate. Like suppose Nick's grandmother was lefthanded? Would she score more from second base too?:laughlol::

[Bradysburns]

Without juggling lineups and positions...

Markakis over Werth in right... I like his defense, higher batting average and what I perceive as a slight edge in speed on the basebaths. And I am not sure Werth repeats his power numbers of the last two years.

Definitely take Weiters over Ruiz.

And... that would be it. The other 23 players, I think at this point we match up unfavorably, if only slightly in some cases. Ask the question at the end of next year and that balance could change significantly.:wedge:

[quidam]

Maybe it is not this obvious...But can somebody explain why those running statistics (scoring from second on a hit, etc.) have anything to do with how good a baserunner is?

Doesnt that rely alot on what the third base coach is calling for? And where the lineup is at when the runner is on?

Of course Markakis is going to be more aggressive when he has Aubrey Huff, Ty Wigginington, and Luke Scott hitting behind him. On the other hand most of Werth's ab's came with Raul Ibanez hitting behind him. He also had 87 ab's when batting 3rd and 4th in the lineup meaning he had a combination of Utley and Howard hitting behind him.

[Bradysburns]

Right now, I'm a better hitter than Ted Williams.

LMAO. Brilliant.

[SilentJames]

[QUOTXBT% (extra base taken on a single or double)

M-41% W-36%

Not all that significance a difference - half a point to Markakis (concede).

1st S3 (Times as a runner on first and a single is hit and reaches third or scores)

M-12 W-9

Again, not all that significance a difference - half a point to Markakis - (concede)

PO (Runner picked off)

M-0 W-3

This is not something to show good baserunner. Brooks never got picked off either so what? Point should go to Werth for his VAST difference in steals and attempts.

RS% (percentage of times as runner player scores)

M-11% W-10%

So small a difference as to be statistically insignificant. tie.2nd SH (Times on second and runner scores on hit)

M-21 W-11

This is the one stat where I do concede a point to Markakis.

Bottom line is if you look at the steals and low percentage of getting caught along with these stats, Werth is clearly the OVERALL BETTER BASE RUNNER!

What?

How can a host of stats where in every single one Markakis is either ahead, or tied mean that Werth is a batter base runner.

I think you are having trouble with the whole "numbers being larger than other numbers" concept.

At worst Werth and Markakis are similar baserunners and the only difference is Werth steals more bases. But your contention was that Werth was a VASTLY SUPERIOR baserunner, and you are wrong.

[ShaneDawg85]

It must be nice to be in a lineup behind Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley, and Ryan Howard, and to hit in a bandbox like Citizens Bank Ballpark. Quite the luxury if you ask me.

[LookinUp]

I'd take Jones and Reimold over Victorino and Ibanez. Jones/Victorino is probably defensible. On Ibanez, I know what he did this year but I still don't believe it. I think he existed in a magic universe with Unicorns and Dwarves, and it somehow resulted in those stats.

I would take Werth over Markakis this year and maybe next year, but not over the long term.

MWeb owned this thread.

Old Fan was fine in this thread.

I don't think the baserunning differences are that significant, except for steals.

Finally, I'd still rather start Ted Williams than any poster on these boards. Even if he's dead and doesn't have a head.

[foxfield]

Maybe it is not this obvious...But can somebody explain why those running statistics (scoring from second on a hit, etc.) have anything to do with how good a baserunner is?

Doesnt that rely alot on what the third base coach is calling for? And where the lineup is at when the runner is on?

Of course Markakis is going to be more aggressive when he has Aubrey Huff, Ty Wigginington, and Luke Scott hitting behind him. On the other hand most of Werth's ab's came with Raul Ibanez hitting behind him. He also had 87 ab's when batting 3rd and 4th in the lineup meaning he had a combination of Utley and Howard hitting behind him.

All good points. But we are O's fans. We judge good baserunning from second as not falling down more than once.:laughlol: