Angels and Orioles have discussed Tejada

[davearm]

Tejada is more valuable than Abreu because of there contracts

Bullshirt. The discrepancies are trivial.

[davearm]

As well as we should be...The bottom line, despite the fact Abreu has been better, he has not been better(using yoru stats) than the average guy at his position as Tejada has been(i dont believe). The other fact is, right now, these guys are being viewed differently...Abreu has been looked at as lazy and not caring alot.

THeir images are different now and that does make a huge difference, even though it shouldn't.

... and Tejada is in the crosshairs of the steroids rumors, and tried last winter to force his way out of Baltimore.

Neither guy had image in their favor.

[davearm]

I think Ravenbird is using common sense and common sense tells you he is right.

Sports Guy, if there was one guy I could count on to piece together a solid, objective, statistical argument in favor of Tejada over Abreu, it'd be you. Throwing around WARPs and OPS's and all manner of other sabermetrics is what you do in these sorts of discussions (not knocking that, it's what I do too ).

The fact that you haven't uttered a single statistic in this thread speaks volumes about who you know is right here. The fact is, there is no objective, statistical argument to be made for Tejada over Abreu.

All the pro-Tejada crowd can do is mumble about 30 vs. 32 years old, and contract trivialities, and SS vs. RF, and now apparently "common sense". None of that stuff matters to the Angels, at least not very much.

The thing that matters is, which guy is going to provide the Angels with a bigger offensive boost? Try making a case for Tejada on that issue.

[rp0806]

All along we've been hearing that the Angels are desperate for a big bat.

Nobody's said the Angels are desperate for a SS, a 3B, a CF, etc.

Heck the guys they're looking at (Soriano, Abreu, Tejada) all play different positions. Sure seems as though position's not important to them.

That's true, but just because these guys play different positions doesn't mean the Angels would treat them all the same way. They'll have Tejada play SS or 3B. If you have a guy with his bat who can play one of those positions (and I see no reason to think he couldn't play competent 3B...it's easier than SS and there's no doubt he has the arm for it), you play him there.

In any event, I'm not saying that the Orioles have the Angels over a barrel or something. Far from it. I could easily see them going for Abreu or Soriano depending on the price. But I don't think Abreu has more value than Tejada for the reasons discussed. You can't just waive away the age, contract, and position issues.

[WhereisBoog]

Interesting tidbits from Rotoworld on two guys discussed on Anaheim trades here. Kotchman is starting to worry me. Prefer Shealy.

"The Angels have stopped Casey Kotchman's rehab assignment after he felt light-headed and dizzy following Saturday night's game.

Kotchman, who is attempting to return from a bout with mononucleosis, will return to Anaheim on Monday and be examined by team orthopedist Dr. Lewis Yocum. He was hitless in seven at-bats for Triple-A Salt Lake. Jul. 16 - 10:26 pm et"

"Angels optioned shortstop Erick Aybar to Triple-A Salt Lake.

Howie Kendrick survives for now, though the return of Dallas McPherson later this week could spell his doom. Aybar has totaled 20 at-bats in 45 days with the Angels this season. It's wasted development time that could have been avoided. Jul. 16 - 8:59 pm et"

[delaware bird]

You still haven't explained why the O's have the Halos over a barrel.

Because the O's aren't forced to move Tejada. He has a reasonable (I'd even say friendly) contract, plays hard, and puts up MVP numbers. Stay or go, Miguel Tejada is an asset.

It's like the farmer with the truck in his field. You go up and offer him $1000 for it. He replies "two thousand and it's yours". You tell him the blue book value is only $1000 though. He says "ayup. But that truck will cost you $2000". He doesn't care if he sells it. He will do it at HIS price.

Can you tell me without a doubt that Tejada is a better offensive player than both Abreu and/or Soriano?

Not sure I understand the sentence. Not really grammatically correct to have "both" with "and/or". But, Tejada IS superior to either Abreu or Soriano. Obviously he is inferior to both players together. But what would it cost for both players together?

[Mackus]

Everything can't be shown as fact or fiction just by using statistics Dave.

You show Abreu's OPS to be higher than Tejada's to prove the point that Abreu is a better hitter than Tejada's. As I said, that OPS is inflated because of Abreu's high OBP. Again, obviously nothing is wrong with Abreu's abillity to get on base, but does that OPS really show he is a better player just because he might draw 100+ walks a season? I don't think that is an accurate measure of a players ability to be honest with you.

If anything, OBP is much more important than SLG, so thats not a good argument to show that Tejada is more valuable than Abreu.

I believe that Tejada is a much more valuable and attractive player than Abreu, but I won't make the claim that Tejada is better offensively. I'd give that to Abreu, mostly because of the OBP. If he continues to fall behind in the HR department though, Tejada gains some ground. However, Tejada is much higher on the totem pole of all SS's than Abreu is for all RFs, which, really, is the bottom line. Add in that he's younger and signed to a much more reasonable contract (3/$38 v 2/$31 after this season) and I think its pretty easy to say that Tejada is more valuable.

I do really like Abreu though and would gladly take on his contract (or at least most of it) if we can get him in a salary dump. I wouldn't want to give up a big package of prospects, but if we can center a deal as a salary dump around Gibbons and/or Benson, I'd jump at that.

[Moose Milligan]

Interesting tidbits from Rotoworld on two guys discussed on Anaheim trades here. Kotchman is starting to worry me. Prefer Shealy.

"The Angels have stopped Casey Kotchman's rehab assignment after he felt light-headed and dizzy following Saturday night's game.

Kotchman, who is attempting to return from a bout with mononucleosis, will return to Anaheim on Monday and be examined by team orthopedist Dr. Lewis Yocum. He was hitless in seven at-bats for Triple-A Salt Lake. Jul. 16 - 10:26 pm et"

"Angels optioned shortstop Erick Aybar to Triple-A Salt Lake.

Howie Kendrick survives for now, though the return of Dallas McPherson later this week could spell his doom. Aybar has totaled 20 at-bats in 45 days with the Angels this season. It's wasted development time that could have been avoided. Jul. 16 - 8:59 pm et"

How DARE you sully the good name of Sir Casey Kotchman on this board? Don't you know he is God in a baseball uniform?

Mono is a mere hurdle for this immortal beast of a man who has yet to don an Orioles uniform.

But he will.

Half man, half amazing, wham, bam, slam, homerun, rbi, ops King-I-Am, Sports Guy droolin Kotch...MAN! KOTCHMAN!

And he will lead us to the promised land.

[NoVaO]

Sports Guy, if there was one guy I could count on to piece together a solid, objective, statistical argument in favor of Tejada over Abreu, it'd be you. Throwing around WARPs and OPS's and all manner of other sabermetrics is what you do in these sorts of discussions (not knocking that, it's what I do too ).

The fact that you haven't uttered a single statistic in this thread speaks volumes about who you know is right here. The fact is, there is no objective, statistical argument to be made for Tejada over Abreu.

All the pro-Tejada crowd can do is mumble about 30 vs. 32 years old, and contract trivialities, and SS vs. RF, and now apparently "common sense". None of that stuff matters to the Angels, at least not very much.

The thing that matters is, which guy is going to provide the Angels with a bigger offensive boost? Try making a case for Tejada on that issue.

Well, now you got me curious, so I've decided to look up those stats.

VORP

Tejada - 35.6

Abreu - 27.2

MLV (additional runs batter will add in a league-average line-up)

Tejada - 16.6

Abreu - 20.7

PMLV (takes into account the position each player plays)

Tejada - 22.2

Abreu - 12.2

Abreu is the better hitter overall, though it is based solely on his ability to draw a walk. Tejada still hits for more power, strikes out less, and hits for a better average. IF we then take into account position, Tejeda is clearly the more valuable player.

Now, you say Tejada has declining power:

Slugging %/Iso Power/AB per HR:

2004 - .534/.224/19.2 (career year)

2005 - .515/.211/25.2

2006 - .507/.195/21.1

And I'm not sure what to make of his G/F ratio this year. Perhaps it is knee that is causing him

But lets look at Abreu's decline in power:

I'm going to include 2003 because he seemed to have a career spike then went back to normal patterns.

Slugging%/Iso Power/AB per HR:

2003 - .468/.168/28.9

2004 - .544/.242/19.1

2005 - .474/.189/24.5

2006 - .455/.168/37.1

Its like this, IMO:

Abreu is the better "overall" hitter right now, but Tejada still gives you more power. Tejada is a more valuable player because of the position he plays.

Age - Advantage Tejada

Contract - Advantage Tejada

More Likely to Decline - Abreu (though Tejeda could do so as well)

Both players have their question marks. However, Abreu, fair or not, has a "not a winner" label attached to him. The perception about Tejada is that he is unhappy about not being on a winning team and he would be his real self again once playing for a winner. Both have steroid questions surrounding them, though Tejada's problems are more publicly talked about. Like it or not, perception of a player's intangibles do account for a small part of a player's value.

But if I could get Abreu cheaply, without having to give up a top prospect, I definitely do that deal before dealing a lot for Tejada. Of course, we aren't completely sure what the Phils want for Abreu.

At a bare minimum for Tejada, I would want Kendrick or Wood, Arredondo, Aybar, and a bullpen guy like Kevin Gregg. I would throw in Conine for free. They wouldn't have to part with any of their highly touted pitchers (though Arredondo is becoming one of them) and they keep Saunders for pitching depth. Is this worth it to pass on a cheaper deal for Abreu? Depends on what the Phillies are asking for.

BTW, the more Kendrick plays and hits, the less likely a deal for him could be made.

[badboydrake]

Well, now you got me curious, so I've decided to look up those stats.

VORP

Tejada - 35.6

Abreu - 27.2

MLV (additional runs batter will add in a league-average line-up)

Tejada - 16.6

Abreu - 20.7

PMLV (takes into account the position each player plays)

Tejada - 22.2

Abreu - 12.2

Abreu is the better hitter overall, though it is based solely on his ability to draw a walk. Tejada still hits for more power, strikes out less, and hits for a better average. IF we then take into account position, Tejeda is clearly the more valuable player.

Now, you say Tejada has declining power:

Slugging %/Iso Power/AB per HR:

2004 - .534/.224/19.2 (career year)

2005 - .515/.211/25.2

2006 - .507/.195/21.1

And I'm not sure what to make of his G/F ratio this year. Perhaps it is knee that is causing him

But lets look at Abreu's decline in power:

I'm going to include 2003 because he seemed to have a career spike then went back to normal patterns.

Slugging%/Iso Power/AB per HR:

2003 - .468/.168/28.9

2004 - .544/.242/19.1

2005 - .474/.189/24.5

2006 - .455/.168/37.1

Its like this, IMO:

Abreu is the better "overall" hitter right now, but Tejada still gives you more power. Tejada is a more valuable player because of the position he plays.

Age - Advantage Tejada

Contract - Advantage Tejada

More Likely to Decline - Abreu (though Tejeda could do so as well)

Both players have their question marks. However, Abreu, fair or not, has a "not a winner" label attached to him. The perception about Tejada is that he is unhappy about not being on a winning team and he would be his real self again once playing for a winner. Both have steroid questions surrounding them, though Tejada's problems are more publicly talked about. Like it or not, perception of a player's intangibles do account for a small part of a player's value.

But if I could get Abreu cheaply, without having to give up a top prospect, I definitely do that deal before dealing a lot for Tejada. Of course, we aren't completely sure what the Phils want for Abreu.

At a bare minimum for Tejada, I would want Kendrick or Wood, Arredondo, Aybar, and a bullpen guy like Kevin Gregg. I would throw in Conine for free. They wouldn't have to part with any of their highly touted pitchers (though Arredondo is becoming one of them) and they keep Saunders for pitching depth. Is this worth it to pass on a cheaper deal for Abreu? Depends on what the Phillies are asking for.

BTW, the more Kendrick plays and hits, the less likely a deal for him could be made.

Two questions:

1. Did you take into account SS or 3B, keep in mind, Tejada would be moved to 3rd in Anaheim, soi he being a SS should be a moot point.

2. What would you want the offer be for Tejadam I'll assume you say Aybar, Morales, and Santana.

So, who would you rather have:

Tejada, nd whomever it takes to get Abreu

or

Abreu, Aybar, Morales, and Santana?

I think that is an easy question.

[NoVaO]

Two questions:

1. Did you take into account SS or 3B, keep in mind, Tejada would be moved to 3rd in Anaheim, soi he being a SS should be a moot point.

2. What would you want the offer be for Tejadam I'll assume you say Aybar, Morales, and Santana.

So, who would you rather have:

Tejada, nd whomever it takes to get Abreu

or

Abreu, Aybar, Morales, and Santana?

I think that is an easy question.

No, I don't have that kind of data on hand. His VORP would go down if I did account for the switch. But Abreu's VORP would go down because he would be moving to DH. Plus, looking specifically at the Angels' team, they have a major hole at third base, while the corner outfielders are pretty well set.

Now, as I said in my previous post, I obviously would trade for Abreu if he came cheaply. However, we don't know what exactly the Phillies are going to want.

As I said before, I would be willing to accept Kendrick or Wood, Aybar, Arredondo, and Gregg for Tejada and Conine. They get to keep their most highly touted pitching prospects. What if the Phils ask for one of Kotchman/Morales/Aybar and Saunders? I probably take that deal if I were the Angels over any deal for Tejada. However, what if you replace Saunders with Adenhart? Then I'm not so sure. The thing is, we don't know how much the Angels value Tejada over Abreu.

[davearm]

Well, now you got me curious, so I've decided to look up those stats.

VORP

Tejada - 35.6

Abreu - 27.2

MLV (additional runs batter will add in a league-average line-up)

Tejada - 16.6

Abreu - 20.7

PMLV (takes into account the position each player plays)

Tejada - 22.2

Abreu - 12.2

Abreu is the better hitter overall, though it is based solely on his ability to draw a walk. Tejada still hits for more power, strikes out less, and hits for a better average. IF we then take into account position, Tejeda is clearly the more valuable player.

Now, you say Tejada has declining power:

Slugging %/Iso Power/AB per HR:

2004 - .534/.224/19.2 (career year)

2005 - .515/.211/25.2

2006 - .507/.195/21.1

And I'm not sure what to make of his G/F ratio this year. Perhaps it is knee that is causing him

But lets look at Abreu's decline in power:

I'm going to include 2003 because he seemed to have a career spike then went back to normal patterns.

Slugging%/Iso Power/AB per HR:

2003 - .468/.168/28.9

2004 - .544/.242/19.1

2005 - .474/.189/24.5

2006 - .455/.168/37.1

Its like this, IMO:

Abreu is the better "overall" hitter right now, but Tejada still gives you more power. Tejada is a more valuable player because of the position he plays.

Age - Advantage Tejada

Contract - Advantage Tejada

More Likely to Decline - Abreu (though Tejeda could do so as well)

Both players have their question marks. However, Abreu, fair or not, has a "not a winner" label attached to him. The perception about Tejada is that he is unhappy about not being on a winning team and he would be his real self again once playing for a winner. Both have steroid questions surrounding them, though Tejada's problems are more publicly talked about. Like it or not, perception of a player's intangibles do account for a small part of a player's value.

But if I could get Abreu cheaply, without having to give up a top prospect, I definitely do that deal before dealing a lot for Tejada. Of course, we aren't completely sure what the Phils want for Abreu.

At a bare minimum for Tejada, I would want Kendrick or Wood, Arredondo, Aybar, and a bullpen guy like Kevin Gregg. I would throw in Conine for free. They wouldn't have to part with any of their highly touted pitchers (though Arredondo is becoming one of them) and they keep Saunders for pitching depth. Is this worth it to pass on a cheaper deal for Abreu? Depends on what the Phillies are asking for.

BTW, the more Kendrick plays and hits, the less likely a deal for him could be made.

Once again, you build up this entire argument upon factors that probably won't matter a lick to the Angels -- age, contract, position.

Look at the Angels lineup for a moment. TEJADA WOULD PROBABLY BE A DH THERE. With Tejada replacing Macier Izturis in the lineup, their best defensive alignment would be:

Napoli/Mathis/Molina C

Morales/Kotchman 1B

Kennedy/Kendrick 2B

OCab SS

Figgins/McPherson 3B

Anderson LF

Rivera CF

Guerrero RF

Tejada DH

If they add Abreu or Soriano instead, then either Abreu/Soriano or Anderson DH's, and the other plays LF. In any case, 3B is passed from Izturis to Figgins or McPherson.

I don't see any scenario where Tejada does anything but DH. He's definitely not taking SS away from OCab, and why throw him into the fire at 3B in the midst of a pennant race when you've got two guys with experience playing there (in McPherson and Figgins), one of which will be in the lineup anyway?

[davearm]

Tejada to 3B, Figgins to LF, Anderson to DH?

And even if he was the DH he would not be next year...Cabrera or Figgins would be dealt.

In the case where you're dead-set on Anderson being the DH, then Abreu is a better defensive option IMO.

Figgins/McPherson 3B

Rivera CF

Abreu LF

Anderson DH

The bottom line is that the Angels are bursting at the seams at every infield position. On the left side alone they've got OCab, Aybar, McPherson, Figgins, and soon, Brandon Wood.

They don't need another infielder, and they won't value Tejada for his shortstop-ness.

[markpolis]

Once again, you build up this entire argument upon factors that probably won't matter a lick to the Angels -- age, contract, position.

Look at the Angels lineup for a moment. TEJADA WOULD PROBABLY BE A DH THERE. With Tejada replacing Macier Izturis in the lineup, their best defensive alignment would be:

Napoli/Mathis/Molina C

Morales/Kotchman 1B

Kennedy/Kendrick 2B

OCab SS

Figgins/McPherson 3B

Anderson LF

Rivera CF

Guerrero RF

Tejada DH

If they add Abreu or Soriano instead, then either Abreu/Soriano or Anderson DH's, and the other plays LF. In any case, 3B is passed from Izturis to Figgins or McPherson.

I don't see any scenario where Tejada does anything but DH. He's definitely not taking SS away from OCab, and why throw him into the fire at 3B in the midst of a pennant race when you've got two guys with experience playing there (in McPherson and Figgins), one of which will be in the lineup anyway?

I hope you meant this is a joke because it's laughable. You must be SG's long lost evil twin. (no offense SG)

Have you watched Anderson in LF and Rivera in CF this year? Have you seen the Angels play at all this year? Figgins in CF, Rivera in LF and Anderson at DH is their best current defensive alignment. McPherson can't stay healthy and has been a bust. With their current offensive deficiencies they can't continue to play Izturis at 3rd. IF the Angels were to trade for Tejada (which by the way will not happen) he would clearly be their everyday 3rd basemen. Do you honestly think they would trade for him (or Abreu or Soriano for that matter) and make them their DH?

If the Phillies current asking price for Abreu is McPherson and Mathis the Angels should not hesitate to pull the trigger. Abreu is a better fit for the Angels and would cost the Angels much less than Tejada. I'm sure the FO's asking price is much too high, but why you constantly attempt to devalue Tejada's worth is ridiculous.

[rp0806]

Once again, you build up this entire argument upon factors that probably won't matter a lick to the Angels -- age, contract, position.

Look at the Angels lineup for a moment. TEJADA WOULD PROBABLY BE A DH THERE. With Tejada replacing Macier Izturis in the lineup, their best defensive alignment would be:

Napoli/Mathis/Molina C

Morales/Kotchman 1B

Kennedy/Kendrick 2B

OCab SS

Figgins/McPherson 3B

Anderson LF

Rivera CF

Guerrero RF

Tejada DH

Come on, you're really reaching now. Rivera is not a CF, Anderson is no longer a good LF, and McPherson stinks. In addition, they've got Salmon, who's still a decent hitter but can't really play in the OF any longer. If they got Tejada, they'd move Figgins to CF fulltime (he's a better CF than 3B anyway), move Tejada or Cabrera to 3B, and let Quinlan, Salmon and Anderson share DHing duties.