Angels and Orioles have discussed Tejada

[Mackus]

I understand where you come from. I am probably a bit biased towards Tejada. I've never been a Soriano fan. I think Bobby Abreu is a heck of a player though. Soriano is having a MVP year. But I'd be reluctant to part with high level prospects for a 3 month rental. Perhaps the Angels are not.

However, stats are deceptive. True Abreu does get on base much more often than Tejada (.442OBP to .361OBP this year), but is a walk just as good as a hit??? In some situations, I would say yes. In many others no. Tejada has more HR, runs scored, RBI, and a higher batting average and slugging than Abreu. Perhaps my Oriole slant is too strong, but I still prefer Tejada (although how I'd love to see Abreu in black and orange).

I think you're confusing what I'm saying.

Abreu and Soriano (at least this year) are better offensive players than Tejada. However, considering contract status, age, position, and everything else, I think Tejada is a more valuable overall player than either of those two (unless Soriano continue to hit 40+ HR with a .350+ OBP like he's going to do this year).

And regarding the hit v walk argument you seem to be having, OBP is much more important to offense than SLG (I've seen as much as 3X as important), so yes, Abreu is that much better than Tejada offensively.

[MPK76]

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=12282

(must be Insider to view)

From Jerry Crasnick chat on ESPN.com

Sean (DC): Jerry, It wass reported this week that the O's and Angels have talked about Miguel Tejada, with the O's asking for Kendrick, Santana, and Shields. Any chance this might actually happen?

Jerry Crasnick: Sean,

I'd say the chances of that trade are very, very (did I mention very?) slim. Bill Stoneman is a cautious guy anyway. Orlando Cabrera has had a fine year, so the Angels don't exactly have a hole at shortstop. And there's no way the Angels trade a great prospect and weaken their rotation and their bullpen just as they're starting to play well.

[davearm]

Thank you once again for proving my point. I guess some things just come natural to some people.

Well for a guy that's implying that my posting style is rude, condescending, and/or abrasive, you sure are being rude, condescending and abrasive. Not that it bothers me, but to hear you complain about it strikes me as awfully hypocritical.

Do you honestly think the Angels would trade for Tejada OR Soriano OR Abreu and insert them into a fulltime DH role? Yeah, that would be a "safe/smart choice" by the Angels. Piss off and alienate the newest addition to your club.

Again, if you would read other people's posts you wouldn't continually make so many false presumptions.

And to answer your latest question (despite the fact that you have yet to answer mine), what I honestly think is that Soriano or Abreu would play LF, and Anderson would DH, but Tejada would DH. You just don't know what you're going to get with either Tejada or Cabrera at 3B, and asking a guy to learn a new position in the middle of a pennant race would be foolish.

For comparison's sake, Nomar Garciaparra was a roughly average defensive SS, and he played a decidedly below average 3B when he moved there last August. It would've been a disaster to have him there if the Cubs were in the race.

I have no clue what "false presumptions" you're alluding to.

[rolliefingers]

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=12282

(must be Insider to view)

From Jerry Crasnick chat on ESPN.com

Sean (DC): Jerry, It wass reported this week that the O's and Angels have talked about Miguel Tejada, with the O's asking for Kendrick, Santana, and Shields. Any chance this might actually happen?

Jerry Crasnick: Sean,

I'd say the chances of that trade are very, very (did I mention very?) slim. Bill Stoneman is a cautious guy anyway. Orlando Cabrera has had a fine year, so the Angels don't exactly have a hole at shortstop. And there's no way the Angels trade a great prospect and weaken their rotation and their bullpen just as they're starting to play well.

It could happen, I just don't think it'll happen during the season.

[delaware bird]

By this time, I see you doing some serious backpedaling with other posters on this subject anyway. You've resorted to things like "that's just the way I feel" and other things that have no basis in fact. Let me try to help you out. When someone says "Is Tejada without a doubt a better offensive player" and you say "YES", that implies that you are saying "Without a doubt". Let's clear this up once and for it. Do you have any doubts that Tejada is a better offensive player than Abreu or Soriano. A simple question. Are you capable of a simple answer?

I have no need of help from you, thanks.

I do not backpedal. That is your interpretation. You want/need clarification, ask in a civil manner.

If you want to imply something I didn't say, then simply please don't quote it and attribute it to me. That isn't that tough, is it?

I am capable of simple answers. However I doubt at this point that it would become simple. Any answer is MY OPINION (thus the "the way I feel" part). If you think your answers are the gospel truth and not an opinion, then you are wrong.

Any sentence including the word "better" is judgemental and NOT factual. Coke is better than Pepsi. To some, yes. To others, no. When you understand the difference between fact and opinion, let me know.

I should also hope that you don't harrass everybody who's opinions differ from yours.

[Mackus]

Any sentence including the word "better" is judgemental and NOT factual.

Not true.

Bobby Abreu is a better offensive player than Miguel Tejada, at least this season.

Tejada is better at some aspects of offense, such as hitting for power, but Abreu is better at the things that lead to an offense scoring more runs, mainly getting on base.

[Fan4Life]

Not true.

Bobby Abreu is a better offensive player than Miguel Tejada, at least this season.

Tejada is better at some aspects of offense, such as hitting for power, but Abreu is better at the things that lead to an offense scoring more runs, mainly getting on base.

Some would consider that you think one is better then the other is an opinion... agreed that getting on base is super, but if nobody hits you in, it doesn't matter much. So Abreu getting on base and scoring depends on others producing..

On the other hand, Tejada hits for more power(we're talking about this year), which means the O's would score alot more runs if he has men on base when he hits for power. Again, his strength also depends on others to produce runs.. at least more runs..

So couldn't it be considered an opinion as to which is better...

[davearm]

Some would consider that you think one is better then the other is an opinion... agreed that getting on base is super, but if nobody hits you in, it doesn't matter much. So Abreu getting on base and scoring depends on others producing..

On the other hand, Tejada hits for more power(we're talking about this year), which means the O's would score alot more runs if he has men on base when he hits for power. Again, his strength also depends on others to produce runs.. at least more runs..

So couldn't it be considered an opinion as to which is better...

Numerous statistical studies by the sabermetricians have illustrated that OBP correlates with runs scored better than SLG does. In fact it's generally understood that OBP is roughly twice as important as SLG.

That 2x rule can be debated, and there have been analyses that peg the exact difference both above and below that, but there is no disagreement, at least in the stathead community, that OBP is more important than SLG.

Here is a case where what you may call an opinion is supported by statistical fact. The proof in the pudding is clear to see in RC/27, where Abreu has a sizable advantage over Tejada.

[delaware bird]

No clever analogies that have nothing to do with anything? What a disappointment! Well, the Coke & Pepsi thing qualifies I guess but I really miss the little story that goes along with it. I'm gonna help you out one more time. Opinions with nothing to back them up are easy fodder around here. Most of us have learned that by now. I do not harrass people who disagaree with me on a regular basis, just the times when they are stubborn and unwilling to acknowledge that maybe they are wrong. Sometimes I change my opinion when someone confronts me with some interesting facts which support their opinion. If you did, I missed it.

Opinions, by nature, can be wrong.

You have illusions of grandeur. That is a fact.

I think you need to get a grip. That is opinion.

We clear now? I'm done with this and you.

[Sports Guy]

Abreu is a better hitter than Miggy..There is not much doubt about that...However, Tejada has more value....And really, there is not any doubt about that either.

[Objectivity]

Opinions, by nature, can be wrong.

You have illusions of grandeur. That is a fact.

I think you need to get a grip. That is opinion.

We clear now? I'm done with this and you.

I think you both should be done with each other for awhile. What started as a disagreement is escalating into messages like the above that are nothing more than petty sniping.

Converse with each other, debate each other, respectfully question each others opinions, but, please, enough of this.

[pdiddy]

Abreu is a better hitter than Miggy..There is not much doubt about that...However, Tejada has more value....And really, there is not any doubt about that either.

Lord knows I'm not weighing in on the debate at this point but I do have a stat question along these lines. Apparently the sabremetricians are on board with OBP over SLG by quite a bit and pretty much everything else as well.

Is there any other tribe of reputable stat guys that put less emphasis on OBP? I can understand the value but it's hard to wrap my brain around it completely. Too much exposure to BA for too long I guess.

[elextrano8]

Lord knows I'm not weighing in on the debate at this point but I do have a stat question along these lines. Apparently the sabremetricians are on board with OBP over SLG by quite a bit and pretty much everything else as well.

Is there any other tribe of reputable stat guys that put less emphasis on OBP? I can understand the value but it's hard to wrap my brain around it completely. Too much exposure to BA for too long I guess.

Well, there is the Dadaist School of Sabremetricians. They tend to emphasize the importance of a players hair color in the scoring of runs. Also, they believe that runs are without any objective meaning.

[Mackus]

Abreu is a better hitter than Miggy..There is not much doubt about that...However, Tejada has more value....And really, there is not any doubt about that either.

Bingo!

Bango! (character limit)

[Mackus]

Not sure he is a better pure hitter than Miggy though.

I don't really know what "pure hitter" means, but its unbelievably difficult to argue that having Miguel Tejada in your lineup leads to more runs scored than having Bobby Abreu in the same lineup and situations.

Who do I want if I need a single this at bat? Tejada.

Who do I want if I need a HR this at bat? Tejada.

Who do I want over the course of all situations over a season? Abreu.