Jocketty out as Cards GM

[Sports Guy]

Just saw it on ESPNews.

[Ohfan67]

ESPN.com report included quotes from the owner about tension between him and Jocketty. I don't follow the Cards at all. Can Redbirds or others provide info?

[Migrant Redbird]

And expect La Russa's resignation to follow.

Jocketty had been publicly discussing the possibility of leaving for some time, and La Russa was talking about postponing his decision on whether or not to return.

If La Russa and Duncan leave, then the Cardinals will probably explore a trade of Chris Duncan to the AL much more vigorously than would otherwise be the case. Chris is a natural DH; he doesn't fit in well on an NL team, especially one which already has a gold glove MVP at 1st.

I think that what tipped the balance for Walt was probably the unwise and completely unnecessary extensions to Carpenter and Edmonds. Those extensions looked bad at the time -- and many of us said so -- and they look especially stupid now.

Edmonds had a club option for $10M with a $7M buyout; given his injury problems in 2006, the Cards should have just exercised his option, or negotiated an extension that would have guaranteed him the $10M for 2007 and 2008, but with incentives for plate appearances that could have raised his total compensation to $10M each season for 600 plate appearances.

Carpenter was signed for 2007 and the club had an option for 2008. We should be negotiating an extension with Carpenter this winter; not looking a 4 more years on a $65M contract extension.

Even if Bill DeWitt approved those extensions at the time, relying on the judgment of his GM, that judgment looks particularly questionable now in hindsight.

There was also the promotion of sabermetrician Jeff Luhnow to director of scouting over Jocketty's objections, which apparently caused a rift in the front office. One reporter says that Luhnow used to sit in a corner of the press box because he wasn't welcome in the GM's office area.

[wildcard]

And expect La Russa's resignation to follow.

Jocketty had been publicly discussing the possibility of leaving for some time, and La Russa was talking about postponing his decision on whether or not to return.

If La Russa and Duncan leave, then the Cardinals will probably explore a trade of Chris Duncan to the AL much more vigorously than would otherwise be the case. Chris is a natural DH; he doesn't fit in well on an NL team, especially one which already has a gold glove MVP at 1st.

I think that what tipped the balance for Walt was probably the unwise and completely unnecessary extensions to Carpenter and Edmonds. Those extensions looked bad at the time -- and many of us said so -- and they look especially stupid now.

Edmonds had a club option for $10M with a $7M buyout; given his injury problems in 2006, the Cards should have just exercised his option, or negotiated an extension that would have guaranteed him the $10M for 2007 and 2008, but with incentives for plate appearances that could have raised his total compensation to $10M each season for 600 plate appearances.

Carpenter was signed for 2007 and the club had an option for 2008. We should be negotiating an extension with Carpenter this winter; not looking a 4 more years on a $65M contract extension.

Even if Bill DeWitt approved those extensions at the time, relying on the judgment of his GM, that judgment looks particularly questionable now in hindsight.

There was also the promotion of sabermetrician Jeff Luhnow to director of scouting over Jocketty's objections, which apparently caused a rift in the front office. One reporter says that Luhnow used to sit in a corner of the press box because he wasn't welcome in the GM's office area.

It's too bad it turned out this way. Walt did a lot for the Cards over the years. Baseball is not a kind sport when you don't win.

[Migrant Redbird]

I don't think the Cardinals slide in 2007 had anything to do with Jocketty's dismissal, although it undoubtedly made it a lot easier to announce to Cardinals nation. What apparently drove Jocketty out was the inability to come to terms with the promotion of Luhnow to director of scouting and the minor league system over Jocketty's guy. That caused a rift in the Cardinals front office, which Jocketty permitted to fester. In addition, he allowed rumors to circulate in the media that he was considering leaving St. Louis to take a GM post elsewhere, even though he was still under contract through 2008.

I think the stupidity of the Carpenter and Edmonds extensions probably contributed too, but DeWitt specifically cited the division in the organization and Walt's letting it be known that he might be available for a GM position elsewhere that led to his dismissal. I hadn't read DeWitt's comments at the news conference when I posted the above.

There is a perception that the Cardinals farm system has improved markedly since Luhnow was placed in charge of it. Whether that perception is valid or not, I can't say. The Cardinals farm system has had a reputation of being one of the worst in baseball through most of the Jocketty era, but a writer at scout.com did some analysis which tallied up the innings and production of Cardinals system products and concluded that the Cardinals under Jocketty out produced virtually all the other ML organizations. There were some issues with the methodology, but I still don't think you can demonstrate statistically that the Cardinals farm system was inferior.

Of course, an awful lot of that production came because the Cardinals were fortunate enough -- or smart enough -- to draft Pujols in the 13th round in 1999. Personally, I have a great deal of difficulty with accepting that the Cardinals had any idea of what Pujols would do -- if they did, they were extremely derelict for waiting until the 13th round to draft him.

[Migrant Redbird]

The quotes from managing owner, Bill DeWitt:

MLB.Com

"I think that we had a little different philosophy and vision with respect to some baseball issues," DeWitt said. "There was clearly tension that was reported widely -- not only locally, but nationally, in the organization. And while I have said on several occasions that tension is in every organization, I do think it got to the point with the Cardinals that it was counterproductive and we couldn't achieve our objectives given what was going on inside the organization."

Jocketty took umbrage at the 2006 promotion of Jeff Luhnow, who had been head of amateur scouting, to a position that oversees both scouting and player development. The move came at the expense of Bruce Manno, one of Jocketty's closest aides.

Additionally, although Jocketty had another year left on his contract, his name appeared frequently in media reports in 2007 connected with potential job openings in other cities. That clearly did not sit well with his superiors.

"It was widely reported throughout many circles during the year that Walt was speculated to be going here or there, and he did have another year on his contract," said DeWitt. "So to say that he wasn't 100 percent happy would certainly be accurate."

[TGO]

Bruce Manno - that's a name from the past.

Hopefully someone will tell me I'm right about the following.

Manno used to work for the Brewers. He left Milwaukee to take a job in Baltimore under then new GM Frank Wren. I do believe he was the guy who worked with some company to produce a new computer program that Wren planned to use to use for statistical analysis. Nowadays a few teams jointly use that program, including the Orioles. I believe Flanagan's guy Ritterpusch was responsible for using the data they received from that company. I'm guessing Proefrock (sp?) does that now.

I believe he originally left Milwaukee after being passed over for the GM position.

His BaseballAmerica resume shows you're at least right about the working for Wren part: http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/execdb/showperson.php?idx=MannoBr01&fname=Bruce&lname=Manno

There's a five year gap in between Milwaukee and Baltimore, though.

[TGO]

Thanks for the fact checking.

I couldn't remember when he left Milwaukee, but I did know that he had worked there, and had been thought to be in line to be GM there at one point.

I was still pretty close.

I did a news search for him and he was laid off by the Brewers during the strike in 1994. Ouch. The team fired 41% of their permanent employees. http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB828850C9CDE7F&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

I'm sure there was talk of him being in line in Milwaukee, though. Sal Bando was a terrible GM there and probably should have been fired multiple times. Though ownership probably didn't help him much.

[longflyball]

There was also the promotion of sabermetrician Jeff Luhnow to director of scouting over Jocketty's objections, which apparently caused a rift in the front office.

Wow. I guess this is one of the opening skirmishes in the war between young sabermetricians and old "baseball men". Tally one for the insurgents.

[Cokeman]

Back on topic, I guess LaRussa and Duncan will be in Seattle next year?

TGO, I'll check a book I have that talks about Manno. That's where I got the info that he thought he was in line to be Mil GM.

Things change, but supposedly McLaren is coming back next year...

Seattle bringing back Bavasi, McLaren

[scOtt]

Wow. I guess this is one of the opening skirmishes in the war between young sabermetricians and old "baseball men". Tally one for the insurgents.

I don't know how connected Jocketty and LaRussa are, but I would think Tony would be a sabermetrician himself...

Is the debate over Luhnow being a stats guy? Or just not being Jocketty's guy?

[TGO]

Jocketty will get another GM job next year, I would think. He could have had another one right now if the teams that had vacancies waited a little longer to hire GMs. Houston, Minnesota, Pittsburgh, I bet one of those teams would have taken him. Houston in particular. I could see the White Sox or Giants maybe picking him up, but I haven't heard anything about Williams or Sabean being on the hot seat.

[Migrant Redbird]

Jocketty will get another GM job next year, I would think.

I believe that Walt will land on his feet. He appears to be one of the nicest people in the business, and I think he's very well regarded around baseball. His only problem might be if, like Joe Girardi, he's perceived by owners as being disloyal because of the way he handled the Luhnow promotion.

...the Cardinals under Jocketty (or least the organization he ran) has been considered one of the most sabermetric teams in MLB.

The question is whether that's because of Jocketty or in spite of him.

Luhnow has been on board a few years. I don't recall if Jocketty hired him or was directed to hire him by DeWitt. Certainly, Luhnow's promotion to director of scouting and minor league operations was over Jocketty's opposition, and apparently led directly to Jocketty's firing.

Back on topic, I guess LaRussa and Duncan will be in Seattle next year?

On the topic of whether he'd be back, La Russa told writers to "look and see where Duncan is and that's where I'll be.

However, La Russa also supposedly let it be known that he might be willing to return even if Jocketty did leave. And DeWitt apparently has made it clear that the job is still La Russa's if he wants it.

La Russa doesn't "feel the love" that he expects from the St. Louis fans and media. If he can't get along with the lapdog writers in St. Louis, it's difficult to imagine him lasting long under the microscope of the media in other cities, especially in New York or Boston. Maybe the Seattle scribes are as toothless and noncritical as those in St. Louis?

[Pedro Cerrano]

Let's fire Trembley, Mazzone, Duquette, Flanagan and bring in Duncan, LaRussa and Jocketty.

:-)

[Leitch]

I think some of heads of the stat geeks here would simply pop and splatter blood, brains, bone, and chunks of hair everywhere if LaRussa came here