Just don't understand the optimism about Tillman

[El Gordo]

There are a lot of "clearly"s on both sides of this debate; so what is more clear is that most folks (myself included) have made up their mind already and not changing it based on a couple of starts.

So back into the fray...

What is clear to you is not clear to me here. I draw a different conclusion from what I see... that Tillman does have a bulldog makeup (bulldog vs. wolves), that he - here goes:) doesn't "give in" - and that more often than not, he finds a way to get out of the jams he creates.

Right, so the learning curve is longer (see above: pitching). Because he lacks that put-away FB his arsenal is broader; he has more to work on. It's a work in progress, not a given from the get-go. I for one actually do enjoy watching him learn on the job, despite the anxiety it creates, pitch by pitch, along the way.

I've deen it time and again. SP hwho's stuff is good enough to pound the strike zone in the MiL, but when they get to the ML they get pounded. So they revert to nibbling to try to survive. Tillman needs to go back to the MiL and learn to command his FB and secondary pitches. Maybe then he cam be effective, but bulldog he's not. A squirrel IMO.

[Sports Guy]

Tillman is frustrating to watch, I agree. I don't think he's a washed up has-been, but I don't enjoy watching him pitch. He works too slowly, he just looks uncomfortable out there on the mound. His stuff is flat, and he doesn't seem to have much confidence in it. I dread the Bergesen/Tillman games.

I do agree that he needs to pick up his pace...there is no question about that.

IMO, a lot of Tillman's issues are between his ears...The problem with that is, can he overcome that?

He has the ability to get out ML hitters and be a good mid rotation guy...but does he believe that he can be that guy?

[Malike]

I do agree that he needs to pick up his pace...there is no question about that.

IMO, a lot of Tillman's issues are between his ears...The problem with that is, can he overcome that?

He has the ability to get out ML hitters and be a good mid rotation guy...but does he believe that he can be that guy?

I'd like to think he can overcome whatever issues he's having in his own head. I don't think its a lack of talent, I think its a lack of confidence and he never seems comfortable on the mound. The talent is there.

[Why_Knott?]

Thank goodness you came into this thread..Intelligence and sanity is always a welcomed trait into a thread full of impatience and ignorance.

You are such a pompous dick.

People are entitled to their opinions on a message board buddy.

Regarding Tillman, at this point in his career he doesn't look like he has what it takes to compete at the major league level, at least as a starter. The potential is there, but he has some work today, and he has to regain the velocity that he had or get some more movement on his FB.

[Singleton]

Koji was one of the best starting pitchers in Japan during his career prior to coming to the majors. And Berge and Koji are both pitchers that rely on pinpoint command and a below average fastball to get outs.

Every pitcher that doesn't have a great fastball relies on "pinpoint commond" that doesn't mean that if one can do it the other can. Koji and BB are just very different pitchers both in terms of what they throw and how they throw it. One's success has nothing to do with the other.

[Sports Guy]

You are such a pompous dick.

People are entitled to their opinions on a message board buddy.Regarding Tillman, at this point in his career he doesn't look like he has what it takes to compete at the major league level, at least as a starter. The potential is there, but he has some work today, and he has to regain the velocity that he had or get some more movement on his FB.

I agree...and my opinion is that this thread is full of ignorance and poor intelligence on the subject.

[Sports Guy]

I'd like to think he can overcome whatever issues he's having in his own head. I don't think its a lack of talent, I think its a lack of confidence and he never seems comfortable on the mound. The talent is there.

This begs the question, which would you prefer a pitcher to have...issues with his physical ability or issues between the ears?

[Singleton]

Tillman has a ways to go, but I've very much enjoyed watching him start to figure things out this year. It's disappointing to me that a fanbase that has watched terrible baseball for a decade can't show enough patience to allow a talented young arm to make adjustments and attempt to grow into a useful future piece.He has 34 career MLB starts. That is fewer than a healthy pitcher would typically make in a single MLB season. I get it -- it's a results-oriented business when you are talking about fans. I just wish folks in general could get behind the idea that development is not always linear.

I could go off on how Matusz was treated the first half of last year and how Wieters has been treated the past two seasons, but I guess it's not really the point.

This the best post I've ever read on this board. Thank you.

There is plenty to pick apart in Chris Tillman's numbers but if you can't see the progress in his game -- you're really missing out. Watching players develop before your eyes -- even the frustrating parts -- to me is one of the best parts of being a fan.

[brianod]

Thank goodness you came into this thread..Intelligence and sanity is always a welcomed trait into a thread full of impatience and ignorance.

The self love is nauseating. Get a clue sports guy, you aren't the only one with valid opinions around here. It is possible that you are wrong and others are right.

[BaltimoreTerp]

The self love is nauseating. Get a clue sports guy, you aren't the only one with valid opinions around here. It is possible that you are wrong and others are right.

Well, when one side is about patience for a young pitcher and the other isn't...No, it isn't possible in this case.

[brianod]

Well, when one side is about patience for a young pitcher and the other isn't...No, it isn't possible in this case.

The problem with SABRmetricians is that they often ignore what they see and prefer to read out of a stat book. What I see is a pitcher that has a straight, 86-90 mph fastball with poor command of his breaking pitches. Sometimes, stats lie. If Tilman doesn't get more movement and/or velocity on his fastball, he will never become a major league starter. I fail to see why we must be patient with him while he attempts to do this. The radar gun in AAA works just as well as it does in Camden yards.

[Sports Guy]

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/110095-Tillman...2010-vs-2011?highlight=tillman

[Sports Guy]

The self love is nauseating. Get a clue sports guy, you aren't the only one with valid opinions around here. It is possible that you are wrong and others are right.

I agree..I specifically quoted Stotle and praised him for his opinions..So obviously I don't think I am the only one.

[Malike]

This begs the question, which would you prefer a pitcher to have...issues with his physical ability or issues between the ears?

Man, SG, that's a really tough question. Gun to my head I'd probably choose physical if we are talking things like mechanics or frequent, nagging injuries that Limit a guy to 15 or so starts once every few years.

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[backwardsk]

Tillman has a ways to go, but I've very much enjoyed watching him start to figure things out this year. It's disappointing to me that a fanbase that has watched terrible baseball for a decade can't show enough patience to allow a talented young arm to make adjustments and attempt to grow into a useful future piece.

He has 34 career MLB starts. That is fewer than a healthy pitcher would typically make in a single MLB season. I get it -- it's a results-oriented business when you are talking about fans. I just wish folks in general could get behind the idea that development is not always linear.

I could go off on how Matusz was treated the first half of last year and how Wieters has been treated the past two seasons, but I guess it's not really the point.

Stotle, what would you be your approach to the rotation for the near future (now until the All-Star break)? Matusz is on schedule to pitch on the same day as Tillman and there are only, to my count, four more starts (after tonight) for the fifth starter.

Do you:

1) Keep Tillman in his spot and have Matusz be the fifth starter (meaning he won't pitch every fifth day and be in the bullpen)

2) Flip the two and have Tillman pitch inconsistantly

3) Insert Matusz, send Tillman down, have Bergesen be the fifth.

4) Start all six 6 guys, not worrying about schedule (sometimes the guy will be on 5 or 6 days rest)

5) Other...please explain.