ESPN Trade Proposal: Hardy to Cards for RHP Joe Kelly and RHP Maikel Cleto

[DrinkinWithFermi]

Yeah! Let's trade our reasonably-priced GG SS with 30 HR power for 2 average pitchers! Look out Yankees, here we come!

P A S S.

[Brendan25]

I know what I read....just not going to search for the article for an hour....I believe it was Arrieta and Matusz and a low level MiL

A low level (Delmarva) MiL = Nick Delmonico

[DrungoHazewood]

Let me give a reason, which seems to have been ignored, why I think trading Hardy is an absolutely terrible idea.

Machado at SS Minors 2012: 22 errors/308 attempts = .954 fielding percentage....he NEVER posted a fld% better than .958 in the minors.

Machado at 3B MLB 2012 5errors /102 attempts = .967

What am I missing here? I realize it is incongruent with normalcy that his defense would improve at 3B, but with the current information we have, Machado should stay there.

You could cry small-sample-size, but I would counter: There might be a SSS to make a suggestion that he is better at 3B, but is there ANY "sample" whatsoever to suggest the opposite? Certainly not gamble-worthy for the O's. Our current SS just had a Gold Glove season at that position, and we want to put a young kid whose career fielding % at SS is .956? That is a TERRIBLE idea.

Fielding percentage in the minors is a terrible metric to quote.

Troy Tulowitzki fielded .948 in the minors.

Ozzie Smith fielded .943.

Mark Belanger fielded .961 in the minors, 17 points lower than in the majors.

Alex Rodriguez made 37 errors in just over a full season's worth of minor league games.

Brendan Ryan just might be the best defensive player in the world right now, and his minor league fielding percentage at SS is .949.

[sfosfan]

Only problem is, I don't think we do it without an answer for third base.

Adam LaRoche perhaps?

I don't understand the thinking that Machado's future is at short. Why fix what isn't broken? And wasn't Manny having some defensive issue at ss in the minors before coming to Baltimore? If the consensus thinking is that Manny could be a gold glover as ss someday, then trading Hardy could make lots of sense- lots more big bat options for third base available. But you wouldn't trade Hardy without locking up third at the same time. Otherwise, no way.

[cmurter]

Troy Tulowitzki fielded .948 in the minors.

Ozzie Smith fielded .943.

Mark Belanger fielded .961 in the minors, 17 points lower than in the majors.

Alex Rodriguez made 37 errors in just over a full season's worth of minor league games.

Brendan Ryan just might be the best defensive player in the world right now, and his minor league fielding percentage at SS is .949.

Translation: MLB infields are pristine. Perfectly flat and sifted dirt. Bad bounces are 1/1000. Factor in 1b that can pick almost anything.

The A ball fields and first basemen most of these guys start with... Not so much.

[Brendan25]

Adam LaRoche perhaps?

I don't understand the thinking that Machado's future is at short. Why fix what isn't broken? And wasn't Manny having some defensive issue at ss in the minors before coming to Baltimore? If the consensus thinking is that Manny could be a gold glover as ss someday, then trading Hardy could make lots of sense- lots more big bat options for third base available. But you wouldn't trade Hardy without locking up third at the same time. Otherwise, no way.

This is exactly what I've been saying. I'm halfway tempted to say just keep Manny at third for his career, keep Hardy at short as long as you can, and find a replacement for Hardy.

Manny looks like a STUD at third, and is going to fill into his body anyway I think.

[weams]

We could have before he had a great 2nd half....I know you can't believe everything you hear but this was the specualtion around the tread deadline

Only the Gum's name was Schoop or Machado. Even then.

[weams]

They have an answer at third, Schoop. He profiles better there then at second.

I think that Tony believes that he does not have the arm for third base. If I remember correctly.

[weams]

Cardinals are an interesting match for a Hardy trade, but there's no urgency, and both pitchers are C/C+ Steve Johnson-types: their big asset is the fact that they're MLB-ready, not that they have a high ceiling. Orioles have plenty of mediocre-to-decent pitching depth right now and don't need guys like Kelly or Cleto.

If we're trading Hardy to the Cards, the main guy coming back needs to be 2B Kolten Wong, a top rated guy who just hit .287/.348/.405 in AA as a 21 year old. That makes the long-term infield plan 3B Schoop, SS Machado, 2B Wong.

If the Cards offer Wong + a lottery ticket low-A pitcher (Kyle Simon-type) for Hardy, O's would have to seriously consider it.

All that said, I don't think the O's are all that interested in trading Hardy.

I don't care for the idea. Sorry.

[DrungoHazewood]

Adam LaRoche perhaps?

I don't understand the thinking that Machado's future is at short. Why fix what isn't broken? And wasn't Manny having some defensive issue at ss in the minors before coming to Baltimore? If the consensus thinking is that Manny could be a gold glover as ss someday, then trading Hardy could make lots of sense- lots more big bat options for third base available. But you wouldn't trade Hardy without locking up third at the same time. Otherwise, no way.

The thinking is that it's much harder to find capable shortstops at any given offensive level than it is third basemen. So Manny, if he's a reasonably good fielder at short, which I think the consensus is that he is or will be, then he's going to be more valuable at short than third. Of course some of this is theoretical, dependent on finding a reasonable solution at third base, or a good return for Hardy.

But... all else being equal, a good fielding shortstop with an .850 OPS is more valuable than a good fielding third baseman with an .850 OPS.

[DrungoHazewood]

Translation: MLB infields are pristine. Perfectly flat and sifted dirt. Bad bounces are 1/1000. Factor in 1b that can pick almost anything.

The A ball fields and first basemen most of these guys start with... Not so much.

That, along with better coaching, more reps, and maturity. When you're a 19-year-old kid you probably have more of a tendency to think you can throw out anyone on any play when you should just eat the ball.

[Can_of_corn]

I think that Tony believes that he does not have the arm for third base. If I remember correctly.

http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/06/18/scouting-report-jonathan-schoop-inf/

Arm: Saw plus to plus-plus arm from shortstop. Made all throws easily. Good carry on throws with plenty of velocity and good accuracy. Has arm for left side of infield. Arm strength outstanding for second base and legit plus on the left side. Grade – 60/60

Torn on defensive projection as 2B or 3B. Solid athleticism and quick-twitch ability push toward third base profile with potential solid-average defense and plus arm that plays anywhere.

http://baseballnewshound.com/?p=1410

Arm Strength

In addition to his slick glove and footwork, Schoop possesses a strong, accurate arm that easily rates plus on the 20-80 scouting scale. When playing short, Schoop’s arm allows him to make plays from deep in the hole and to also turn late-developing double-plays. At second, he makes tough plays that others at the position can’t, and he’s already able to make spin-throws against his body to throw out baserunners hustling to first. His smooth, short throwing mechanics are ideal for an infielder and his sturdy base affords him accuracy and carry. His arm gives him the flexibility to take his plus glove to third base if the Orioles choose. Regardless of his future defensive home though, Schoop’s arm strength, along with his glovework, should make him an asset.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/1/6/2686624/scouting-report-on-jonathan-schoop

With lots of arm strength but not the softest of hands, Schoop is best suited for third-base. He's played both the hot corner and shortstop, although he doesn't have enough range to stick up-the-middle.

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/119616-Jonathan-Schoop-2B-Bowie-%282012-Tracker%29

Defensively, he surprised some with his ability to play second base effectively. Some felt he didn't have the foot quickness to play second base, but he quickly showed an ability to cover ground to go along with his already soft hands and strong arm.

[DrungoHazewood]

Schoop possesses a strong, accurate arm that easily rates plus on the 20-80 scouting scale.

I would have thought it was more of an A on the 1-10 scale.

[sfosfan]

The thinking is that it's much harder to find capable shortstops at any given offensive level than it is third basemen. So Manny, if he's a reasonably good fielder at short, which I think the consensus is that he is or will be, then he's going to be more valuable at short than third. Of course some of this is theoretical, dependent on finding a reasonable solution at third base, or a good return for Hardy.

But... all else being equal, a good fielding shortstop with an .850 OPS is more valuable than a good fielding third baseman with an .850 OPS.

I get that part, and it's probably going to happen sooner rather than later. Hardy had a below average year with his bat but it wasn't all too terrible and should be better next year so that's more the reason behind my doubt. It's nice to finally have no worries at 3b for a change. Either way, this is a nice problem to have.

[CA-ORIOLE]

http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/06/18/scouting-report-jonathan-schoop-inf/

http://baseballnewshound.com/?p=1410

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/1/6/2686624/scouting-report-on-jonathan-schoop

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/119616-Jonathan-Schoop-2B-Bowie-%282012-Tracker%29

Sounds like Schoop could play third base.