Jeter to Retire After 2014 Season

[spiritof66]

Whether you can convince them that Cal was better depends on how much your buddies believe in defense.

Isn't it hard to argue that defense isn't real important when you're talking about shortstops?

In every conversation I've had on this or similar subjects -- and I try to avoid them -- I end up hearing about Jeter's "intangible" contributions and his leadership. At that point, I usually put my head down. In my home, Jeter is sometimes referred to as "Captain Intangibles."

[backwardsk]

Whether you can convince them that Cal was better depends on how much your buddies believe in defense.

On offense alone there's a strong argument that Jeter was the better player. Cal had more power and a lot more HRs but Jeter has a big advantage in AVG/OBP and a higher career OPS and OPS+. Jeter will end his career with about 300 more hits than Cal despite playing in about 300 less games.

But defensively Cal was so much better than Jeter that there is no debate. Cal was transcendent as a fielder at SS. Jeter's famous jump/throw plays helped him get a good reputation as a fielder for most of his career, which helped him win a couple gold gloves, but the stats show he was never actually very effective as a defender because of his below average range. The last few years especially Jeter has been a liability in the field, while Cal switched to 3b during his declining seasons so his defense did not deteriorate as much.

If you want the simplest argument, Cal had 95 career WAR and Jeter has 72, which is in my mind a big enough gap to be convincing even if you are only halfway a believer in WAR.

First off, I would take Ripken over Jeter. But does the difference in WAR have anything to do with the fact (well, my perception, and I'll watch it get disproved) that Jeter played in an environment with better shortstops? In other words, would the gap be closer if their careers covered the same years?

[AdamK]

The name "Cal Ripken Jr."... It's perfect.

"Derek Jeter"...? It's like I'm describing a problem to my mechanic.

[schittenden]

Tom Boswell addressed this in his chat on the Post website today.

http://live.washingtonpost.com/ask-boswell-20140721.html

[Mizerooskie]

Jeter is, by far, the most overrated current player from a historical standpoint.

Was he even a top-3 player at his position at any point in his career?

[backwardsk]

Isn't it hard to argue that defense isn't real important when you're talking about shortstops?

In every conversation I've had on this or similar subjects -- and I try to avoid them -- I end up hearing about Jeter's "intangible" contributions and his leadership. At that point, I usually put my head down. In my home, Jeter is sometimes referred to as "Captain Intangibles."

How often did Jeter call pitches?

Again, Jeter is a great player...first time HOFer, but I still go with Ripken.

[Orioles4Life21]

Jeter is, by far, the most overrated current player from a historical standpoint.

Was he even a top-3 player at his position at any point in his career?

Pretty sure the numbers that go into calculating a player's WAR are adjusted to the era that they played in.

[Mizerooskie]

Pretty sure the numbers that go into calculating a player's WAR are adjusted to the era that they played in.

Indeed. And he's 193rd all time in average rWAR

[weams]

This should shut them up.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/event_hr.cgi?n1=jeterde01

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/event_hr.cgi?id=ripkeca01

Rip was power hitter.

[sfosfan]

Cal gets a fat pitch in his last All Star game and hits it out. Jeter gets the same pitch in his last game and hits a double.

And now Adam Wainwright has to open his mouth and ruin the experience. Too bad Adam can't keep his mouth shut and let Jeter enjoy the moment- that's the classy thing to do. It's a shame Adam can't be more like Cal and Derek tonight.

[AdamK]

What did he say?

[centralpaosfan]

If you recorded the game, go back and watch Jeter's first at bat. You can hear him tell the catcher not to tell him what is coming for the first pitch. Let him see the first pitch. Then the next pitch Wainwright grooves a fastball down the middle and Jeter is all over it. I know this happens all the time, but I laughing when the announcers were gushing about how much of a gamer Jeter is in situations like this after he got the double. He knew what was coming! I still agree that Wainwright should have kept his mouth closed.

[centralpaosfan]

What did he say?

Something to the effect that he was going to throw pitches Jeter could hit.

[sfosfan]

Adam mentioned to one reporter he wanted to give Derek something to hit, but if he knew if it was going to be for a double he would have thought otherwise. Then near the end of the game to another reporter he said his humor got misunderstood. Adam isn't so sharp in front of the media it seems.

[TakebackOPACY]

The more practical reasoning has been given. If you want to use some things that sound impressive:

• Cal has more HR's from the SS position than any other player in history,
  
• and he is 4th in the history of baseball at any position in defensive WAR (baseball reference).

That's a pretty good combination.