Orioles messing with Gausman again what's new.

[Can_of_corn]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Gausman with 1-2-3 first for Aberdeen. touching 98 on Ripken Stadium radar gun per <a href="https://twitter.com/PTRadio">@PTRadio</a></p>— Steve Melewski (@masnSteve) <a href="

">July 2, 2014</a></blockquote>

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[Guest]

2 innings in 10 days. I'm sure he's gonna look great Sunday.

[sambowen]

2 innings in 10 days. I'm sure he's gonna look great Sunday.

To all the posters (Which I am astounded there is anyone that would support the decision)

that support the decision to send Gausman down when he was doing so well I ask the the question do you want to win? He has missed probably two starts. The way he was pitching before they started messing with his head and not pitching in his regular rotation spot you are talking two possible wins. You really think we have a better chance of winning with Chen, Gonzalez, and yes I will say Tillman? How can you defend this process?

[SteveO]

To all the posters (Which I am astounded there is anyone that would support the decision)

that support the decision to send Gausman down when he was doing so well I ask the the question do you want to win? He has missed probably two starts. The way he was pitching before they started messing with his head and not pitching in his regular rotation spot you are talking two possible wins. You really think we have a better chance of winning with Chen, Gonzalez, and yes I will say Tillman? How can you defend this process?

KG is only going to pitch so many innings this year period the end. Every team does this with young starters

I would rather those innings come in the second half when we are fighting for a playoff spot rather than have to manufacture ways to keep his innings down in the middle of a pennant race.

If keeping that inning tally low now so he is available later also allows us to make some roster moves that help the team right now...all the better.

All the people on here whining about him now would lose their minds if we are yanking him after 5 or 6 innings to keep his inning total down later. If they had to skip him a start or two in the middle August or Sept I can imagine the melt down if this move generated this much clamor.

Lot of armchair GM making much ado about nothing.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

[Loophole]

What I hate about how Gausman's being treated is that all his opportunities have been purely reactive. He's never a priority; despite being the first- or second-most talented healthy pitcher in our league who is young and ready to pitch in the majors, actually getting him to Baltimore seems like the last thing on anyone's mind. Roch wrote this today in his blog:

My guess is Gausman starts Sunday. McFarland is too valuable in the bullpen.

And I know Roch isn't Buck or Peterson or DD, but this is such a ridiculous statement. Gausman should be up, right now, pitching every fifth day and helping this team get to the playoffs because he's one of the five best choices we have and he could become our best pitcher very quickly. McFarland's one month of success in the bullpen should not be a factor in this decision.

[Stotle]

One thing I will say is that if Baltimore is indeed adhering a soft innings cap, and this maneuvering is in part in order to keep his innings down, then it is a negative effect of running him out of the pen last year, as opposed to allowing him to continue to build up innings as a starter throughout the summer. Not saying he's ruined, or his development is stunted, or anything like that. Just that if he had been logging innings as a starter since joining the org in 2012 he should be up to around 185 innings this year without issue.

[weams]

One thing I will say is that if Baltimore is indeed adhering a soft innings cap, and this maneuvering is in part in order to keep his innings down, then it is a negative effect of running him out of the pen last year, as opposed to allowing him to continue to build up innings as a starter throughout the summer. Not saying he's ruined, or his development is stunted, or anything like that. Just that if he had been logging innings as a starter since joining the org in 2012 he should be up to around 185 innings this year without issue.

It is part of what having a contending team does to you. The days of worrying about development of a talent like his alone ended in 2011.

[Stotle]

It is part of what having a contending team does to you. The days of worrying about development of a talent like his alone ended in 2011.

Well, no. It's what happens when you don't have enough quality depth. Hopefully that will not be an issue in the future and the org will build up the talent level across the board.

[weams]

Well, no. It's what happens when you don't have enough quality depth. Hopefully that will not be an issue in the future and the org will build up the talent level across the board.

We can both agree on this.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'll preface this post by saying that I'm not suggesting that what the Orioles did in the 1970s was a good idea, or that some of these pitchers became excellent starters because of what I'm going to show. I'm not in any way saying that this is how I'd handle young pitchers today. I just found this interesting, and have to believe this type of handling would provoke outrage today:

In 1977 Scott McGregor was a rookie. It appears that he was with the team the entire year, he has no minor league record from that year. In April he started two games for his only two appearances for the month. In May he appeared in four games, twice in mopup long relief, twice recording saves. In June he pitched five times in relief in losses, July continued that but he only pitched four times including once on 20 days rest. August was more long relief. So was September, save for an 11-inning complete game victory. He followed up the 11-inning game by getting saves in both ends of a doubleheader, pitching 1.2 innings in the game 1, and 3 innings in game two.

That same year, 1977, Dennis Martinez was also a rookie. He threw 29 games in relief, and made another 13 starts. From opening day through June 15th he only started three times, two of them were complete games, the other he was removed in the 2nd inning. He had ten days between apperances twice, seven another two times. On July 25th he threw 10 complete innings in a no-decision. Six times he threw at least nine innings, and other six times he recorded a single out.

Most Oriole fans are somewhat familiar with Wayne Garland and his 20-win season in 1976. Garland was a long reliever until late May. Didn't start a game until Memorial Day weekend. And he wasn't really in the rotation then, he went 10 days between appearances in early June. After that Earl rode him like a rented mule, going 15-7 in 183 innings in a bit over half the season. Of course his arm fell off (figuratively) shortly thereafter.

In '76 Mike Flanagan went a week or more between appearances seven different times, not counting his mid-season demotion to Rochester. He also threw complete games on three days rest three different times.

In '76 Ross Grimsley made almost half his appearances on 6+ days rest, but also threw two complete games on three days rest.

In 1980 23-year-old Mike Boddicker was called up for one late-season start, allowing six runs in 7.1. In 1981 he pitched blowup mopup work twice in late September. In 1982 he pitched junk-time relief in August, then mostly sat the bench in September. In 1983 he was called up in May, threw relief on the 8th, then after 8 days rest threw a complete game shutout. He started on 8+ days rest three times that year, and on three days rest four times.

In 1965 19-year-old Jim Palmer pitched on 1 or zero days rest five times, and 8+ days rest another five times. He pitched twice in July.

Suffice it to say, this was commonplace. To the Orioles of my youth the concept of clockwork-like treatment of young pitchers was totally foreign. Earl expected pitchers to bide their time in the bullpen not pitching at all, sometimes for weeks, then go throw nine innings when called upon.

In 1989 the Orioles under Frank Robinson went to a four-man rotation in August and September with three rookies plus 25-year-old Jeff Ballard.

As a 19-year-old bonus baby in 1955 Sandy Koufax didn't get into a game in April. Or May. Or the first 23 days of June. He was on the active roster the whole time, just didn't pitch. On August 24th he'd pitched 10.2 innings all year. Then on the 25th he pitched an inning of relief, and two days later he threw a complete game shutout with 14 Ks. Three days later he allowed four runs in an inning or relief. Two days after that he threw another CG shutout, then he didn't pitch for a week.

Again, please don't take this as advocacy for chaotic treatment of young pitchers, but I just think it's interesting how baseball has established ways they have to do things that often flip 180 degrees in a relatively short amount of time (defined as roughly my 43 years on Earth). I'm sure today's methods represent progress (really), but an awful lot of young pitchers over the years thrived in very different conditions. Of course many of them didn't, which in a roundabout way leads us to discussions of Kevin Gausman.

[BRobinsonfan]

I'll preface this post by saying that I'm not suggesting that what the Orioles did in the 1970s was a good idea, or that some of these pitchers became excellent starters because of what I'm going to show. I'm not in any way saying that this is how I'd handle young pitchers today. I just found this interesting, and have to believe this type of handling would provoke outrage today:

In 1977 Scott McGregor was a rookie. It appears that he was with the team the entire year, he has no minor league record from that year. In April he started two games for his only two appearances for the month. In May he appeared in four games, twice in mopup long relief, twice recording saves. In June he pitched five times in relief in losses, July continued that but he only pitched four times including once on 20 days rest. August was more long relief. So was September, save for an 11-inning complete game victory. He followed up the 11-inning game by getting saves in both ends of a doubleheader, pitching 1.2 innings in the game 1, and 3 innings in game two.

That same year, 1977, Dennis Martinez was also a rookie. He threw 29 games in relief, and made another 13 starts. From opening day through June 15th he only started three times, two of them were complete games, the other he was removed in the 2nd inning. He had ten days between apperances twice, seven another two times. On July 25th he threw 10 complete innings in a no-decision. Six times he threw at least nine innings, and other six times he recorded a single out.

Most Oriole fans are somewhat familiar with Wayne Garland and his 20-win season in 1976. Garland was a long reliever until late May. Didn't start a game until Memorial Day weekend. And he wasn't really in the rotation then, he went 10 days between appearances in early June. After that Earl rode him like a rented mule, going 15-7 in 183 innings in a bit over half the season. Of course his arm fell off (figuratively) shortly thereafter.

In '76 Mike Flanagan went a week or more between appearances seven different times, not counting his mid-season demotion to Rochester. He also threw complete games on three days rest three different times.

In '76 Ross Grimsley made almost half his appearances on 6+ days rest, but also threw two complete games on three days rest.

In 1980 23-year-old Mike Boddicker was called up for one late-season start, allowing six runs in 7.1. In 1981 he pitched blowup mopup work twice in late September. In 1982 he pitched junk-time relief in August, then mostly sat the bench in September. In 1983 he was called up in May, threw relief on the 8th, then after 8 days rest threw a complete game shutout. He started on 8+ days rest three times that year, and on three days rest four times.

In 1965 19-year-old Jim Palmer pitched on 1 or zero days rest five times, and 8+ days rest another five times. He pitched twice in July.

Suffice it to say, this was commonplace. To the Orioles of my youth the concept of clockwork-like treatment of young pitchers was totally foreign. Earl expected pitchers to bide their time in the bullpen not pitching at all, sometimes for weeks, then go throw nine innings when called upon.

In 1989 the Orioles under Frank Robinson went to a four-man rotation in August and September with three rookies plus 25-year-old Jeff Ballard.

As a 19-year-old bonus baby in 1955 Sandy Koufax didn't get into a game in April. Or May. Or the first 23 days of June. He was on the active roster the whole time, just didn't pitch. On August 24th he'd pitched 10.2 innings all year. Then on the 25th he pitched an inning of relief, and two days later he threw a complete game shutout with 14 Ks. Three days later he allowed four runs in an inning or relief. Two days after that he threw another CG shutout, then he didn't pitch for a week.

Again, please don't take this as advocacy for chaotic treatment of young pitchers, but I just think it's interesting how baseball has established ways they have to do things that often flip 180 degrees in a relatively short amount of time (defined as roughly my 43 years on Earth). I'm sure today's methods represent progress (really), but an awful lot of young pitchers over the years thrived in very different conditions. Of course many of them didn't, which in a roundabout way leads us to discussions of Kevin Gausman.

This is fascinating stuff... I wonder how injury rates for pitchers compared for that era versus now?

[DrungoHazewood]

This is fascinating stuff... I wonder how injury rates for pitchers compared for that era versus now?

Very hard to say with any certainty, the data just isn't really there. Also, apples-to-oranges. Over time starters have moved away from pacing and towards max effort almost all the time. That tends to offset the gains from biomechanical analysis, orthopedic medicine, and lower innings/max pitch totals. There's also the lower deviation in game-to-game pitch counts. Used to be a starter would get yanked after 20 or 30 pitches if the manager thought he "didn't have it", today you'll go 80+ pitches unless you're getting totally shelled.

[LA2]

I'll preface this post by saying that I'm not suggesting that what the Orioles did in the 1970s was a good idea, or that some of these pitchers became excellent starters because of what I'm going to show. I'm not in any way saying that this is how I'd handle young pitchers today. I just found this interesting, and have to believe this type of handling would provoke outrage today:

In 1977 Scott McGregor was a rookie. It appears that he was with the team the entire year, he has no minor league record from that year. In April he started two games for his only two appearances for the month. In May he appeared in four games, twice in mopup long relief, twice recording saves. In June he pitched five times in relief in losses, July continued that but he only pitched four times including once on 20 days rest. August was more long relief. So was September, save for an 11-inning complete game victory. He followed up the 11-inning game by getting saves in both ends of a doubleheader, pitching 1.2 innings in the game 1, and 3 innings in game two.

That same year, 1977, Dennis Martinez was also a rookie. He threw 29 games in relief, and made another 13 starts. From opening day through June 15th he only started three times, two of them were complete games, the other he was removed in the 2nd inning. He had ten days between apperances twice, seven another two times. On July 25th he threw 10 complete innings in a no-decision. Six times he threw at least nine innings, and other six times he recorded a single out.

Most Oriole fans are somewhat familiar with Wayne Garland and his 20-win season in 1976. Garland was a long reliever until late May. Didn't start a game until Memorial Day weekend. And he wasn't really in the rotation then, he went 10 days between appearances in early June. After that Earl rode him like a rented mule, going 15-7 in 183 innings in a bit over half the season. Of course his arm fell off (figuratively) shortly thereafter.

In '76 Mike Flanagan went a week or more between appearances seven different times, not counting his mid-season demotion to Rochester. He also threw complete games on three days rest three different times.

In '76 Ross Grimsley made almost half his appearances on 6+ days rest, but also threw two complete games on three days rest.

In 1980 23-year-old Mike Boddicker was called up for one late-season start, allowing six runs in 7.1. In 1981 he pitched blowup mopup work twice in late September. In 1982 he pitched junk-time relief in August, then mostly sat the bench in September. In 1983 he was called up in May, threw relief on the 8th, then after 8 days rest threw a complete game shutout. He started on 8+ days rest three times that year, and on three days rest four times.

In 1965 19-year-old Jim Palmer pitched on 1 or zero days rest five times, and 8+ days rest another five times. He pitched twice in July.

Suffice it to say, this was commonplace. To the Orioles of my youth the concept of clockwork-like treatment of young pitchers was totally foreign. Earl expected pitchers to bide their time in the bullpen not pitching at all, sometimes for weeks, then go throw nine innings when called upon.

In 1989 the Orioles under Frank Robinson went to a four-man rotation in August and September with three rookies plus 25-year-old Jeff Ballard.

As a 19-year-old bonus baby in 1955 Sandy Koufax didn't get into a game in April. Or May. Or the first 23 days of June. He was on the active roster the whole time, just didn't pitch. On August 24th he'd pitched 10.2 innings all year. Then on the 25th he pitched an inning of relief, and two days later he threw a complete game shutout with 14 Ks. Three days later he allowed four runs in an inning or relief. Two days after that he threw another CG shutout, then he didn't pitch for a week.

Again, please don't take this as advocacy for chaotic treatment of young pitchers, but I just think it's interesting how baseball has established ways they have to do things that often flip 180 degrees in a relatively short amount of time (defined as roughly my 43 years on Earth). I'm sure today's methods represent progress (really), but an awful lot of young pitchers over the years thrived in very different conditions. Of course many of them didn't, which in a roundabout way leads us to discussions of Kevin Gausman.

Thanks so much for looking all this up!

Such a different era and some of those pitchers, they must have been gods.

[DrungoHazewood]

Thanks so much for looking all this up!

Such a different era and some of those pitchers, they must have been gods.

They weren't any better or more durable than today's pitchers. Probably less so. They just weren't required to throw max effort for 100 pitches every five days to entire lineups of batters who could all hit.

I'd love to see a Verlander or a Lee or even a Tillman facing workout-phobic Kiko Garcia and Ray Oyler and Mark Belanger and a pitcher in every lineup, in cookie-cutter football stadiums with 390 foot alleys and strike zones going from the knees to the shoulders. On second thought... I'm not sure I like 2-run-a-game baseball.

[Ohfan67]

They weren't any better or more durable than today's pitchers. Probably less so. They just weren't required to throw max effort for 100 pitches every five days to entire lineups of batters who could all hit.

I'd love to see a Verlander or a Lee or even a Tillman facing workout-phobic Kiko Garcia and Ray Oyler and Mark Belanger and a pitcher in every lineup, in cookie-cutter football stadiums with 390 foot alleys and strike zones going from the knees to the shoulders. On second thought... I'm not sure I like 2-run-a-game basebal

Good reminders. I love watching old games online. I freakout about the strike zone every time! It was so huge. I can't imagine someone like Maddux working with that strike zone.

And thanks for sharing this fun info.