Roch: Penn Cut

[Mackus]

Trembley and MacPhail have both explained exactly why Penn was demoted, and it had nothing to do with performance or past "immaturity". It was because he'll be most likely to add to the team's depth if he's getting extended innings at the minor league camp than if he's getting sporadic innings at the major league camp. Those are facts. Trembley has always had glowing things to say about Penn, even last spring training.

Your opinions of him are both unfounded and directly contradicted directly by the Orioles people in multiple strings of the command chain. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but those opinions can be wrong. Your opinion of Penn and the reasons he was demoted and the club's viewpoint of him is certainly one of those opinions that is just simply wrong.

He may or may not pan out in the long run, and if he doesn't, that wouldn't prove you right. It would just prove that prospects are a gamble. If you opinion was simply that you don't think he'll pan out, fine, but you are changing it to be that he won't pan out and using his current demotion as proof of that, which is wrong at best and a lie at worst.

[Crazysilver03]

I might believe Trembley if Penn was in the ML rotation. Until then, it is just spin.

Even though Trembley says that Penn is in minor league camp so he can build up innings as a starter, something he couldnt do in big league camp.

So your rationale is that you will only believe the evidence if Penn were in big league camp, but the evidence is that he got sent to minor league camp because he needed to build up innings but that isnt evidence for you because it is minor league camp.

So if Liz is sent to the minors in the next few days because he needs to build up innings as a starter, the evidence isnt valid?

[Crazysilver03]

Trembley and MacPhail have both explained exactly why Penn was demoted, and it had nothing to do with performance or past "immaturity". It was because he'll be most likely to add to the team's depth if he's getting extended innings at the minor league camp than if he's getting sporadic innings at the major league camp. Those are facts. Trembley has always had glowing things to say about Penn, even last spring training.

Also, by sending Penn down this early, he can be recalled earlier in the season if he is needed for whatever reason.

[Old#5fan]

Trembley and MacPhail have both explained exactly why Penn was demoted, and it had nothing to do with performance or past "immaturity". It was because he'll be most likely to add to the team's depth if he's getting extended innings at the minor league camp than if he's getting sporadic innings at the major league camp. Those are facts. Trembley has always had glowing things to say about Penn, even last spring training.

Your opinions of him are both unfounded and directly contradicted directly by the Orioles people in multiple strings of the command chain. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but those opinions can be wrong. Your opinion of Penn and the reasons he was demoted and the club's viewpoint of him is certainly one of those opinions that is just simply wrong.

He may or may not pan out in the long run, and if he doesn't, that wouldn't prove you right. It would just prove that prospects are a gamble. If you opinion was simply that you don't think he'll pan out, fine, but you are changing it to be that he won't pan out and using his current demotion as proof of that, which is wrong at best and a lie at worst.

No, I am not using his current demotion as singular proof that he won't pan out but in combination with other past history with this kid it certainly does not give rise to optimism. I think when you look at everything about this kid's career in its entirety which is only logical, you would conclude that he is on a downward (not upward) spiral. That is all I am espousing here and I do think he won't pan out, but it is not based solely on any one aspect but everything taken as a whole. What is so hard to grasp about that?

As far as me being right, what if I am? It doesn't make any of you optimistic sorts lesser than I. However, if I am right maybe you should not be so fast to jump to conclusions that my views are unfounded and nonsensical. If I arrive at the correct conclusion that is simply contradictory to your arguments that I have no basis for my viewpoints.

[Mackus]

No, I am not using his current demotion as singular proof that he won't pan out but in combination with other past history with this kid it certainly does not give rise to optimism. I think when you look at everyting about this kid's career in its entirety which is only logical, you would conclude that he is on a downward (not upward) spiral. That is all I am espousing here and I do think he won't pan out, but it is not based solely on any one aspect but everything taken as a whole. What is so hard to grasp about that?

You are very clearly using his recent demotion as proof that the team isn't high on him. How can you say you aren't? You are justifying your opinon, which is based on about 75% nonsense, by misrepresenting the Orioles intentions for Penn. Its somewhere between unreasonable and dishonest.

[Old#5fan]

Even though Trembley says that Penn is in minor league camp so he can build up innings as a starter, something he couldnt do in big league camp.

So your rationale is that you will only believe the evidence if Penn were in big league camp, but the evidence is that he got sent to minor league camp because he needed to build up innings but that isnt evidence for you because it is minor league camp.

So if Liz is sent to the minors in the next few days because he needs to build up innings as a starter, the evidence isnt valid?

I fail to grasp why you are even comparing Liz to Penn? Liz to my knowledge never acted all cocky and arrogant like he expected to be in the rotatation and then proceeded to fall flat on his face and get an A$$ chewing by Perlozzo. Liz never left his bag behind and missed a team bus. Liz never tripped falling down stairs causing him to go on the DL. In fact, I have never heard of any similar problems with Liz whatsover. Ergo, I think Liz is now a better prospect and has moved ahead of Penn in the pecking order.

[Crazysilver03]

No, I am not using his current demotion as singular proof that he won't pan out but in combination with other past history with this kid it certainly does not give rise to optimism. I think when you look at everything about this kid's career in its entirety which is only logical, you would conclude that he is on a downward (not upward) spiral. That is all I am espousing here and I do think he won't pan out, but it is not based solely on any one aspect but everything taken as a whole. What is so hard to grasp about that?

As far as me being right, what if I am? It doesn't make any of you optimistic sorts lesser than I. However, if I am right maybe you should not be so fast to jump to conclusions that my views are unfounded and nonsensical. If I arrive at the correct conclusion that is simply contradictory to your arguments that I have no basis for my viewpoints.

You say Penn has fallen out of favor. But his early demotion is aligned so that he will be one of the first pitchers recalled from AAA for the major league rotation. Trembley made note of this.

He is not on a downward spiral. Or, at least, he has already hit bottom by your conclusions, so he can only go up. He came to camp healthy this year and looked decent in Spring Training. He wasnt going to get the chance to build up his innings in major league camp so he was sent to Sarasota so he can build up his strength.

And being sent to minor league camp in this situation isnt necessarily a demotion. The Orioles just dont have enough spots to go around for everyone. They sent Burres and Albers to minor league camp yesterday to pitch but they stated that will be one of the few times if anys. They dont want to keep shuffling their pitchers back and forth so unfortunately, they had to "cut" Penn and send him to Sarasota so he can get constant work. Trembley said that there will likely be a few more cuts so everyone can get their work in.

The whole options thing is probably not important, in terms of when they get optioned, because everyone who has an option is probably going to burn it this year.

[Hank Scorpio]

I might believe Trembley if Penn was in the ML rotation or at least in the bullpen. Until then, it is just spin to appear not to be throwing him under the bus. Of course Trembley is not going to publicly hang him out to dry. It would be the seal of doom for Penn's career!

You have got to be yanking our collective chains with this thought process.

The kid has excellent stuff, ML stuff according to Leo Mazzone... and he is 23 years old.

[Mackus]

As far as me being right, what if I am? It doesn't make any of you optimistic sorts lesser than I. However, if I am right maybe you should not be so fast to jump to conclusions that my views are unfounded and nonsensical. If I arrive at the correct conclusion that is simply contradictory to your arguments that I have no basis for my viewpoints.

Penn's failings will not be due to him falling down the stairs two years ago. So even if he doesn't pan out, it won't be for the reasons you claim it is due to, but simply because he couldn't put things together at the MLB level.

If you were saying that he won't succeed because he doesn't have good enough command of his fastball to get MLB hitters out and is not poised enough to make the jump from AAA to MLB, I'd disagree with you, but it would at least be a opinion based on realistic reasons. If he failed because of those reasons, you could claim a win on your opinion of him. Those are legit concerns, is the main point.

But a better example of what you are doing is saying soemthing like "Penn won't be successful because he has blond hair" or "Penn won't succeed because he can't speak Italian". Whether he succeeds or not, its completely irrelevant from the reasons you are giving, because they are meaningless when it comes to his future in baseball.

[Hank Scorpio]

I fail to grasp why you are even comparing Liz to Penn? Liz to my knowledge never acted all cocky and arrogant like he expected to be in the rotatation and then proceeded to fall flat on his face and get an A$$ chewing by Perlozzo. Liz never left his bag behind and missed a team bus. Liz never tripped falling down stairs causing him to go on the DL. In fact, I have never heard of any similar problems with Liz whatsover. Ergo, I think Liz is now a better prospect and has moved ahead of Penn in the pecking order.

Do you not think that ability to freakin' pitch has anything to do with a pitcher's potential?

[Crazysilver03]

I fail to grasp why you are even comparing Liz to Penn? Liz to my knowledge never acted all cocky and arrogant like he expected to be in the rotatation and then proceeded to fall flat on his face and get an A$$ chewing by Perlozzo. Liz never left his bag behind and missed a team bus. Liz never tripped falling down stairs causing him to go on the DL. In fact, I have never heard of any similar problems with Liz whatsover. Ergo, I think Liz is now a better prospect and has moved ahead of Penn in the pecking order.

I am comparing Liz to Penn because of the reasoning that Penn was shipped out to Sarasota so he can get innings.

BTW, Penn didnt go on the DL because of tripping down the stairs. He missed a few days of workouts, thats it.

Prospect status is not determined by who has mental issues or not. Riley was our #1 prospect for forever even though he was a headcase. Have you read about Billy Rowell, he started off pretty cocky. He said he is going to be a Hall of Famer. By your logic, he isnt going to amount to anything because he has attitude issues.

[Old#5fan]

You are very clearly using his recent demotion as proof that the team isn't high on him. How can you say you aren't? You are justifying your opinon, which is based on about 75% nonsense, by misrepresenting the Orioles intentions for Penn. Its somewhere between unreasonable and dishonest.

I am not saying that the team isn't high on him. I am precisely saying that. What I am saying is you seem to be completely discounting anything negative in his past soley based on Trembley's recent comments which I view as simply spin to support his player which Trembley used to try to help this kid recapture more of a positive image. I happen to believe that Penn's past transgressions are not simply gone and forgotten. I am not that naive.

[Old#5fan]

You are very clearly using his recent demotion as proof that the team isn't high on him. How can you say you aren't? You are justifying your opinon, which is based on about 75% nonsense, by misrepresenting the Orioles intentions for Penn. Its somewhere between unreasonable and dishonest.

I am not saying that the team isn't high on him because of the demotion. I am precisely saying that they are not high on him because of all the other stupff. What I am saying is you seem to be completely discounting anything negative in his past soley based on Trembley's recent comments which I view as simply spin to support his player which Trembley used to try to help this kid recapture more of a positive image. I happen to believe that Penn's past transgressions are not simply gone and forgotten. I am not that naive.

[Mackus]

I am not saying that the team isn't high on him. I am precisely saying that. What I am saying is you seem to be completely discounting anything negative in his past soley based on Trembley's recent comments which I view as simply spin to support his player which Trembley used to try to help this kid recapture more of a positive image. I happen to believe that Penn's past transgressions are not simply gone and forgotten. I am not that naive.

I'm not saying they didn't happen. I'm saying they are irrelevant, at least the off-field issues.

If Penn makes it or doesn't, it will have nothing to do with if he fell down some stairs a few years ago. Or because he forgot his bag. Or even because he struggled in ST two years ago.

[Old#5fan]

You are very clearly using his recent demotion as proof that the team isn't high on him. How can you say you aren't? You are justifying your opinon, which is based on about 75% nonsense, by misrepresenting the Orioles intentions for Penn. Its somewhere between unreasonable and dishonest.

I am not saying that the team isn't high on him because of the demotion. I am precisely saying that they are not high on him because of all the other stupff. What I am saying is you seem to be completely discounting anything negative in his past soley based on Trembley's recent comments which I view as simply spin to support his player which Trembley merely used to try to help this kid recapture more of a positive image. I happen to believe that Penn's past transgressions are not simply gone and forgotten. I am not that naive.