Roch: Penn Cut

[Old#5fan]

Teams in all sports have shown that they'll always value talent over even serious mistakes. But you keep harping on three relatively minor incidents that happened in the span of a few weeks and putting a scarlet letter on him. You are honestly, seriously, going to believe that those few weeks at the age of 21 or 22 have completely thrown everything else he's done into doubt?

Honestly, having seen him pitch much more often than you have, I knew you were full of crap from the get-go. Now that you've admitted you haven't even seen him pitch, and decided instead to be an antagonist over minor incidents that covered the span of a few weeks and haven't been repeated at any other time in his professional career, before or after, you shouldn't even continue this conversation. Seriously, give it up. Enron stock has more value than your opinion on Penn.

Some of what you say I agree with. I can be taken to task for commenting on Penn without observing him all that much which goes against my normal MO. So I will take the heat for that. However, I do believe those incidents have cast a black mark on his promising career but more importantly is his on-field performance which has not continued to progress as anticipated.

As someone else posted if he starts pitching like the next Josh Beckett all of the past problems will be forgotten in an instant. The problem is he has not shown enough to prove that he is worthy of even being on a major league roster to this point and with his early track record that is not what was expected. He is not achieving the anticpated or even desired results on the mound to this point whatever the reason(s). I don't think this can be denied.

[Hank Scorpio]

Not many but in Penn's case I am admittedly going mostly on what I have read or heard about him, not on what I have seen.

Okay, I'm just trying to figure out what you were basing your argument on.

And that's fair - I have my opinions on lots of the potential trade targets we discuss around here which I've never seen. I typically use the baseball cube or other stat sites to determine how these players have fared thus far in their professional careers. Those sites won't tell you how many times a player has fallen down the steps or how cocky they are... but they will tell you definitively their ability to strike batters out or induce groundballs. Those are the generally accepted types of analysis that are employed when evaluating young players.

[Wingman]

<img src='http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/3/11/canyoubeliev128497722685011250.jpg'></img>

This wouldn't be an appropriate time to say "BLOW IT UP" would it?

[RShack]

I think he's just trying to build a 15-animal team that he's happy with...

Ha! Nicely done ;-)

[RShack]

Is RShack trying to make us long for his rambling posts with this campaign of annoying animal pictures?

I thought a picture was worth a thousand words.

I can go back to words, not a problem...

[Old#5fan]

Okay, I'm just trying to figure out what you were basing your argument on.

And that's fair - I have my opinions on lots of the potential trade targets we discuss around here which I've never seen. I typically use the baseball cube or other stat sites to determine how these players have fared thus far in their professional careers. Those sites won't tell you how many times a player has fallen down the steps or how cocky they are... but they will tell you definitively their ability to strike batters out or induce groundballs. Those are the generally accepted types of analysis that are employed when evaluating young players.

I understand that but do you also understand that sometimes talent or potential is not quite enough for a player to make it? Especially when they lack the maturity, focus, and work ethic to apply their talent in as constructive (as opposed to destructive) manner as humanly possible?

Matt Riley and Sidney Ponson are two pitchers who come to mind in this regard.

[Mackus]

Matt Riley and Sidney Ponson are two pitchers who come to mind in this regard.

Riley has had 3 Tommy John surgeries. His elbow didn't explode because he was immature. Had he not gotten hurt, he would have been a stud, attitude problems or nay.

Ponson was an alcoholic. I don't think you really want to be comparing Penn falling down a flight of stairs and missing a bus to that, do you?

[Frobby]

This has to be one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever seen. The decision to send Penn to minor league camp is completely, totally unrelated to anything other than the team's current assessment of who are the most likely to be ready to pitch in the major leagues as of March 31, 2008.

There is no evidence of Penn being a troublemaker or being cocky. None. By the way, he did not miss a bus last year. He had been given permission (along with other players) to drive his car to a road game. When he got there (an hour's drive away), he learned that his equipment bag had not been loaded on the team bus, because he mistakenly had not left his bag in the right location in the clubhouse. So he got in his car, went back to Ft. Lauderdale, got his bag, and came back. His mistake was that he did not tell Sam Perlozzo or his staff that he was going back to get his bag, so when the appointed time for arrival at the stadium came, he had not returned and the staff did not know where he was. That was the entire episode.

At worst, Penn was a bit careless. To treat him like a pariah based on that would be absurd, and Trembley certainly doesn't think of him that way. I have posted the comments he made supporting Penn at the time of that incident numerous times, and a certain poster simply ignores them.

I pity you if others judge you as harshly and arbitrarily as you judge others.

[Hank Scorpio]

I understand that but do you also understand that sometimes talent or potential is not quite enough for a player to make it? Especially when they lack the maturity, focus, and work ethic to apply their talent in as constructive (as opposed to destructive) manner as humanly possible?

Matt Riley and Sidney Ponson are two pitchers who come to mind in this regard.

Riley's issues were well documented, but his psyche isn't what derailed him.

His elbow did.

Ponson was generally apathetic towards anything other than partying. I don't know if Penn has those same issues, but I don't believe that his are comparable at this point to Ponson's.

[Old#5fan]

Riley's issues were well documented, but his psyche isn't what derailed him.

His elbow did.

Ponson was generally apathetic towards anything other than partying. I don't know if Penn has those same issues, but I don't believe that his are comparable at this point to Ponson's.

Well both Riley and Ponson are Oriole pitchers who I did observe much more than Hayden Penn so I can more appropriately comment on their performance. While Riley's "elbow" may be officially viewed as his major problem (even though he is still trying to make a major league club even now as we speak) I think an even more significant problem was his 10 cent head.

Furthermore, I saw him pitch when his elbow was fine and he still had trouble getting the ball over the plate at the major league level in good locations.

Ponson similarly could not pitch consistently in the big leagues even though he had the capability.

So while Penn is not yet comparable to either of these dubious two, I think the point is that how a player handles himself is important to his success. Penn has has some problems and the jury is out on his future success.

[Mackus]

Furthermore, I saw him pitch when his elbow was fine and he still had trouble getting the ball over the plate at the major league level in good locations.

You mean a 19 y/o pitcher had some troubles in his first 11 innings in the majors?

Impossible, I say!

[Hank Scorpio]

Well both Riley and Ponson are Oriole pitchers who I did observe much more than Hayden Penn so I can more appropriately comment on their performance. While Riley's "elbow" may be officially viewed as his major problem (even though he is still trying to make a major league club even now as we speak) I think an even more significant problem was his 10 cent head.

Furthermore, I saw him pitch when his elbow was fine and he still had trouble getting the ball over the plate at the major league level in good locations.

Ponson similarly could not pitch consistently in the big leagues even though he had the capability.

So while Penn is not yet comparable to either of these dubious two, I think the point is that how a player handles himself is important to his success. Penn has has some problems and the jury is out on his future success.

The bolded is absolutely true. But he's young and healthy... and the O's basically sent Penn to minor league camp so that he can log more innings and hopefully be ready to jump into the rotation when someone either goes down to injury or falters early.

Note : Matt Riley's only pre-elbow issue stint was when he was 19 years old!!!! Phew, talk about overly rushing your young players. I wouldn't be so bold as to compare Penn's issues to Ponson's. They are two completely different animals.

[Old#5fan]

The bolded is absolutely true. But he's young and healthy... and the O's basically sent Penn to minor league camp so that he can log more innings and hopefully be ready to jump into the rotation when someone either goes down to injury or falters early.

Note : Matt Riley's only pre-elbow issue stint was when he was 19 years old!!!! Phew, talk about overly rushing your young players. I wouldn't be so bold as to compare Penn's issues to Ponson's. They are two completely different animals.

I am not directly comparing Penn to Ponson,just using Riley and Ponson to illustrate that talent alone doesn't always pan out, especially if the players don't utilize it properly or wisely. So far Penn has sort of regressed instead and it makes me wonder if he has the proper attitude, work ethic, and mental outlook to go along with the talent. That is the only reason I mentioned these two. Heck Penn may not even have as good a career in the majors as Ponson for all we know, I just hope he gives himself the best opportunity to succeed and not blow it away.

[Hank Scorpio]

I am not directly comparing Penn to Ponson,just using Riley and Ponson to illustrate that talent alone doesn't always pan out, especially if the players don't utilize it properly or wisely. So far Penn has sort of regressed instead and it makes me wonder if he has the proper attitude, work ethic, and mental outlook to go along with the talent. That is the only reason I mentioned these two. Heck Penn may not even have as good a career in the majors as Ponson for all we know, I just hope he gives himself the best opportunity to succeed and not blow it away.

I have kept my mind open with Penn because of his age. When a kid debuts at 20 years old, 9 times out of 10 he's been rushed to the ML level. I'm sure even he would admit that he wasn't prepared for it at the time.

Sometimes these kids need to grow up mentally as well as physically. Obviously, that doesn't always happen (Ponson). I have seen Penn pitch enough to know that he has the ability to get people out at the ML level. He just needs to get healthy and I'm pretty sure he'll be okay...

[byrdz]

The jury is still out on any player that's a prospect; not really a stretch to say that.