Is it Duquette or Angelos to blame here?

[atomic]

Team ERA

2007 5.17

2008 5.13

2009 5.15

2010 4.59

2011 4.89

2012 3.90

2013 4.20

2014 3.43

2015 4.05

2016 4.23

[MDtransplant757]

I'm not so sure we should be calling up a guy that is going to lovingly be referred to as Dick Rod.

[video=youtube_share;mDqsgbtpDLk]

[El Gordo]

Then do a better job building the farm system. Draft better. Develop better. Stop putting guys like Rick Peterson in charge that ban pitches from the minors. Know when your club isn't good enough and don't trade what little starting depth is in the minors for players that don't move the needle (Parra).

And perhaps easiest to do...don't sign guys with bum shoulders like Gallardo. Our doctors are some of the most stringent doctors in MLB. Duquette should have just told Gallardo "thanks, but no thanks" and moved on.

I don't get how we're supposedly so great at evaluating guys like Gallardo, yet when it came to an optionable, reasonably cheap, well liked guy in Miguel Gonzalez...that we were OK with rolling with Mike Wright and Tyler Wilson as the backup plan knowing full well that Gallardo was damaged goods?

It just wreaks of desperation.

Blame Peter Angelos all you want. But Peter Angelos didn't tell Duquette to sign Ubaldo, Gallardo and trade for Miley. That's real money next year ($35m).

PA leaves him no choice but to sign these kind of guys. If the O's doctors had said don't sign Gallardo he wouldn't have been signed. They didn't say that they said don't sign him for 3 years. But you just keep making stuff up to fit your agenda Deb.

[O's84]

Team ERA

2007 5.17

2008 5.13

2009 5.15

2010 4.59

2011 4.89

2012 3.90

2013 4.20

2014 3.43

2015 4.05

2016 4.23

I'll take 2012 or 2014 for 500 Alex.

[Bmorebirds24]

The answer here is simple it's Duquette. If the problem is that we can't add to our team through our farm system that's because Duqeutte and the scouting team hasn't brought in enough if any talent down in the farm.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tntoriole]

It might work better to just view the quality of starters and relievers as pitchers collectively rather than just look at available "starters", most of whom can't pitch in the AL East. Upgrade or go get quality relievers who can only pitch one or two innings but at a high level. Zach used to be a starter, now superb closer. In the offseason, sign as many guys or convert guys in our minor league who are "starters".... The most valuable pitchers of all may be those guys like Sammy Stewart was...can come in early and slam the door for three or four. The more I think about this, the more I realize I underestimated TJs contribution to the quality of the pen.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Stotle]

Cmon we all know that comparison is laughable. Sure he's 18, but the dude gives up almost a hit an inning, and is barely under 9 k/IP....the only thing remarkable is the lack of HR he gives up. No where near what Jose Fernandez was @ 18/19 (who at 20 struck out 180+ in the MLB over 170 innings)

He might be highly touted but we all know there are top 20 prospects that never do anything in the show. Comparing him to Jose Fernandez is laughable at best.

The command is much worse than Fernandez. The stuff is arguably better.

[LookitsPuck]

PA leaves him no choice but to sign these kind of guys. If the O's doctors had said don't sign Gallardo he wouldn't have been signed. They didn't say that they said don't sign him for 3 years. But you just keep making stuff up to fit your agenda Deb.

Trog, you must be living in some kind of fantasy world where you think doctors are dictating contracts. Duquette waited until the last minute and was desperate. To think otherwise just shows how much you can't pin any responsibility on Duquette. When he makes terrible signings, it's Angelos's fault for not allowing him to spend $30/m a year on a pitcher. When he makes a good signing, he's the best GM in the world to you. You're ridiculous.

Keep drinking that Koolaid, Trog.

[Moondoggie]

Cmon we all know that comparison is laughable. Sure he's 18, but the dude gives up almost a hit an inning, and is barely under 9 k/IP....the only thing remarkable is the lack of HR he gives up. No where near what Jose Fernandez was @ 18/19 (who at 20 struck out 180+ in the MLB over 170 innings)

He might be highly touted but we all know there are top 20 prospects that never do anything in the show. Comparing him to Jose Fernandez is laughable at best.

Then you must be busting a gut when scouts compare him to Pedro Martinez.

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news/new-padre-anderson-espinoza-already-compared-to-pedro-martinez/1jhv3lz2h0g0z1xeky0h17iav6

Minor league statistics don't really mean that much, especially when a player is so young. One of my best friends was drafted 34th overall and had a 10.89 ERA over 14 starts in his first season. Three years later he was in the majors (although injury quickly derailed his career). By the same token, lots of guys rack up great stats in the minors and just aren't big league material.

When scouts assess a player, statistics mean nothing. GMs aren't going to put much stock in them either. They're going to trust their scouts and their eyes. It's not fantasy baseball. Anderson Espinoza was the top international pitching prospect when the Red Sox signed him at 16. Baseball America had him rated as the No. 19 prospect in all of baseball this year (everybody had him in their Top 100). According to the scouts, he has a fastball that sits in the upper 90s, an above average (and at times plus) change and curve (kind of amazing for an 18 year old) and an easy delivery. The link I provided isn't the only one that compares him to Pedro.

The Orioles have nobody like that. The Orioles don't have a prospect that anybody thinks is worthy of the top 100. They have a few guys with nice stats, but nobody with the sort of potential it takes to pull off such a deal. You can't just throw a bunch of guys you think you can do without out there and get somebody to give you back anyone very good in a trade.

[hoosiers]

The question in the OP is more than a little comical to me.

DD has built a team with a payroll larger than most Os fans could have dreamed of, has forfeited draft picks for Gallardo and Jimenez, has dealt away draft picks early in two different seasons to shed relievers he acquired or put on the team, dealt away JakeA, EdRod, and mid-season top 25 prospect Josh Hader, has spent the least amount internationally in his term than all but perhaps five franchises and, oh by the way, inherited from his predecessor an all-star CF, an all-star closer, an all-star 1B and a top five player in all of MLB, plus our starting SS and 2B!

Hey, kudos to our GM for currently having us in the race and in position for a playoff spot, but I think a majority of teams could start from a given point in time and forfeit or trade the draft picks and talent we have given up while also ramping up the payroll and find itself in a competitive position. A comfortable majority of GMs wouldn't have had to burn down the farm system to get to this point and THAT is why we find ourselves in a playoff race with teams that have significantly more minor league talent than we do to either call up and perform or trade for top talent. It is kind of interesting that the same GM who gave up a pick for the non-performing Jimenez also gave up a pick for the non-performing Gallardo when pretty much every other GM in the game stayed away. It is unbelievable that the team finds itself in a competitive position despite the poor performance and wasted investment in those two.

The Nats can call up Lopez and Turner and NOT trade away Fedde, Robles and other. The Sox can call up Benintendo and deal for Pomeranz while holding onto Betts, waiting for Bradley Jr to develop. The Jays deal for Tulo and Price last year and let Price go and are now ahead of us again.

I could go on, but am dumbfounded that folks even suggest blame lay at the feet of Angelos relative to DD. Hopefully, the team can get to the finish line in its current position or better, but it doesn't feel like a team (or overall organization talent) with a lot in the tank for this stretch run or a team ready to compete again in 2017 and beyond.

[hoosiers]

Cmon we all know that comparison is laughable. Sure he's 18, but the dude gives up almost a hit an inning, and is barely under 9 k/IP....the only thing remarkable is the lack of HR he gives up. No where near what Jose Fernandez was @ 18/19 (who at 20 struck out 180+ in the MLB over 170 innings)

He might be highly touted but we all know there are top 20 prospects that never do anything in the show. Comparing him to Jose Fernandez is laughable at best.

What you don't seem to understand that some strong baseball minds don't think the comparison is laughable AND what most don't understand is that it doesn't matter if the comp is laughable or not or if the prospect pans out or not.

The belief is that the kid has that much talent such that he has THAT MUCH VALUE IN TRADE! That is the only thing that matters. The Os have no one with that kind of value and we've traded away guys that might approach that value today when they were not fully baked (like Josh Hader or the six first, supplemental or second round picks our GM has forfeited or traded).

[O-Arm36]

I don't see why anyone is to blame here. This team wasn't even supposed to be good in 2012 but we finally got some magic and dudes significantly outperformed their peripherals on the mound. I think everyone deserves credit for keeping a team that should have been a flash in the pan relevant for 5 years now. It's been by far the best 5 years of my sports fan life.

Do I wish we could develop pitching better? Of course. But pitching is also the most volatile commodity in all of sports. The Dbacks won the offseason by most accounts and look at them now. We have to take chances on guys like Wade. They just won't always work.

[atomic]

What you don't seem to understand that some strong baseball minds don't think the comparison is laughable AND what most don't understand is that it doesn't matter if the comp is laughable or not or if the prospect pans out or not.

The belief is that the kid has that much talent such that he has THAT MUCH VALUE IN TRADE! That is the only thing that matters. The Os have no one with that kind of value and we've traded away guys that might approach that value today when they were not fully baked (like Josh Hader or the six first, supplemental or second round picks our GM has forfeited or traded).

You think Josh Hader has a lot of value in trade? That is comical. He has is 0 and 5 with a 5.5 ERA and 1.5 WHIP in triple A 4 years after we traded him. He was a 19th round pick.

[atomic]

I don't see why anyone is to blame here. This team wasn't even supposed to be good in 2012 but we finally got some magic and dudes significantly outperformed their peripherals on the mound. I think everyone deserves credit for keeping a team that should have been a flash in the pan relevant for 5 years now. It's been by far the best 5 years of my sports fan life.

Do I wish we could develop pitching better? Of course. But pitching is also the most volatile commodity in all of sports. The Dbacks won the offseason by most accounts and look at them now. We have to take chances on guys like Wade. They just won't always work.

People just must like to complain. They act like DD is competing against a bunch of buffons. The Orioles play in the best division in baseball with teams with the resources to hire best scouts and analysts and money to sign top free agents. You think DD wouldn't rather have David Price over Gallardo? Even being in such a tough division they have been in the hunt for a playoff spot every year that DD has been with the team.

And the reason Mr Angelos has agreed to increase the payroll has been DD success.

[Stotle]

You think Josh Hader has a lot of value in trade? That is comical. He has is 0 and 5 with a 5.5 ERA and 1.5 WHIP in triple A 4 years after we traded him. He was a 19th round pick.

Yeah, he has a lot of trade value.