What Will Happen to Wieters?

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Like I just said, he's better than Beef and overall I don't think "one of the worst" is a fair description of how the metrics grade him.

I'll believe that GM's value framing as much as the analysts do when I see two things:

Guys getting paid, and I mean paid, for framing.

Managers pulling their starting Catcher in save situations for a framing specialist.

 

 

So....pitch framing hasn't hurt his market then.

Funny how people think that's the defining reason he hasn't been signed yet.  

Pitch framing might be the sexy new thing, and not to sound like Old5fan, but what a dumbass metric it is.  No way to quantify if the umpire had some bad Taco Bell at lunch and has to squat a quarter inch more cause he's farting all game and can't call a backdoor slider properly so he's relying on where the catchers glove is.  Give me a f'ing break.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

So....pitch framing hasn't hurt his market then.

Funny how people think that's the defining reason he hasn't been signed yet.  

Pitch framing might be the sexy new thing, and not to sound like Old5fan, but what a dumbass metric it is.  No way to quantify if the umpire had some bad Taco Bell at lunch and has to squat a quarter inch more cause he's farting all game and can't call a backdoor slider properly so he's relying on where the catchers glove is.  Give me a f'ing break.

We can't know.  Maybe some teams are turned off.

But I don't think it is close to the deciding factor.

Framing aside, Wieters' defense has been declining.

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

We can't know.  Maybe some teams are turned off.

But I don't think it is close to the deciding factor.

Framing aside, Wieters' everything has been declining.

Fixed that.

I feel bad for him, kinda.  Was hoping he'd land in a good situation and have a few more good seasons but he's certainly declining.  I can't imagine there's no team out there that'd appreciate his services.

[Frobby]

45 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Has pitch framing really hurt his market, or is that something we're talking into a reality here at the OH?

It's speculation.  Nobody really knows. 

[ArtVanDelay]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right, which is why they don't seem to be willing to pay extra for a framer.

Oh and despite last year Wieters is a better framer than Beef.

I also said that Wieters just isn't very good overall.  

I don't think the Orioles care about pitch framing but other teams do.

[sportsfan8703]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Fixed that.

I feel bad for him, kinda.  Was hoping he'd land in a good situation and have a few more good seasons but he's certainly declining.  I can't imagine there's no team out there that'd appreciate his services.

I don't feel bad for him.  He made 17 million last year for the QO.  I'm sure we offered him some pretty fair extensions after he accepted that.  He could have signed a 2 yr deal with us this offseason and tried to win with everyone else.  Now he's going to have to sign a short term deal and if he does any good he will be dealt at the deadline.  

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

I also said that Wieters just isn't very good overall.  

I don't think the Orioles care about pitch framing but other teams do.

And yet no one is obviously getting paid for it.

And yet you don't see teams bring in a superior framing backup catcher like they would a defensive specialist in the outfield.

If the impact was what some of the folks tracking it say it is these things would be happening.

Earlier this offseason it was seen as a victory for the framing camp when a 1 win catcher (framing isn't included in that valuation) got a 3/24 deal.  When that is about what you would expect a 1 win catcher to get.

[LA2]

1 hour ago, cimota said:

We could do a one year deal at 8 million.  We need two catchers.   I am sure Wieters would hit a lot better if he only played half the games in the field.  

8 million for a backup catcher? 

[ArtVanDelay]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

And yet no one is obviously getting paid for it.

And yet you don't see teams bring in a superior framing backup catcher like they would a defensive specialist in the outfield.

If the impact was what some of the folks tracking it say it is these things would be happening.

Earlier this offseason it was seen as a victory for the framing camp when a 1 win catcher (framing isn't included in that valuation) got a 3/24 deal.  When that is about what you would expect a 1 win catcher to get.

I know 1 win is worth over $8MM, but 3/24 is still a lot of money to pay for a 1 win player (especially for a team like MIN) .  I'd say pitch framing had a lot to do with that. 

[pastorfan]

1 hour ago, cimota said:

We could do a one year deal at 8 million.  We need two catchers.   I am sure Wieters would hit a lot better if he only played half the games in the field.  

This idea has no real basis. We got plenty of RBI's out of our back-up catcher's last year!

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, ArtVanDelay said:

I know 1 win is worth over $8MM, but 3/24 is still a lot of money to pay for a 1 win player (especially for a team like MIN) .  I'd say pitch framing had a lot to do with that. 

Of course you would.  Just like the other pitch framing proponents did.

But isn't framing, at the highest levels, worth multiple wins by itself?

So if he is a one win guy and a superior framer shouldn't he be getting paid like a 2-3 win guy?

 

[Number5]

17 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I don't feel bad for him.  He made 17 million last year for the QO.  I'm sure we offered him some pretty fair extensions after he accepted that.  He could have signed a 2 yr deal with us this offseason and tried to win with everyone else.  Now he's going to have to sign a short term deal and if he does any good he will be dealt at the deadline.  

$15.8 million.

[LA2]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Of course you would.  Just like the other pitch framing proponents did.

But isn't framing, at the highest levels, worth multiple wins by itself?

So if he is a one win guy and a superior framer shouldn't he be getting paid like a 2-3 win guy?

 

Definitely: The O's should consider themselves very effectively framed if Boras is able to portray him as a 3 win player.

[ArtVanDelay]

15 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Of course you would.  Just like the other pitch framing proponents did.

But isn't framing, at the highest levels, worth multiple wins by itself?

So if he is a one win guy and a superior framer shouldn't he be getting paid like a 2-3 win guy?

 

What would he have gotten if he wasn't a highly regarded framer? Probably not $24MM. 

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

What would he have gotten if he wasn't a highly regarded framer? Probably not $24MM. 

Look, my thing isn't that framing doesn't exist at some level.

It isn't that being a good framer isn't an asset and being a bad framer isn't a detriment.

It is that the numbers being bandied around are out of whack with reality.

They don't match the market and they don't conform with how we would expect the teams to act.

Yes, Wieters is probably being hurt in some manner by his poor metrics.

Yes the 1 win Catcher probably had an easier time getting his third year.

But it isn't the be all end all some folks are making it out to be.

 

Once Buck start pulling Beef in save situations and sending Caleb out there we can talk again.