Grade the Gausman Deal

[NCRaven]

21 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

So they don't trust who they have in place?

Not necessarily true.  Maybe Graham and Maduro are the ones telling ownership that the Mesas and Gaston aren't worth what the other teams offered?

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, NCRaven said:

Not necessarily true.  Maybe Graham and Maduro are the ones telling ownership that the Mesas and Gaston aren't worth what the other teams offered?

How likely is that?

[NCRaven]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

How likely is that?

Unknowable.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, NCRaven said:

Unknowable.

How likely do you think it is?

[AnythingO's]

22 hours ago, wildcard said:

Who do they have in place and how long will  they be there after the President and GM are announced?

Look at the history. Graham was hired in 2007 I believe, Brady has been around forever, as has Stockstill. PA hired Andy, Buck, and Dan. John A. has had some executive responsibilities for 15-20 years, so he presumably had some input with PA. PA listened to Andy, Buck, Dan, and presumably John and made his own choices. Graham, Brady, and Stockstill all got executive promotions in the 2012-2013 time frame. Andy and Buck are gone and then Dan after he was allowed to make the trades and talk about International commitment. Then the contingent going to Miami includes Graham, Stockstill, Brady, and John. IMO opinion these are John's guys and he will use them just as PA used Andy, Buck, and Dan. Wasn't John in charge of new Spring training facility negotiations with Ft. Lauderdale? That failed and then we focused on Sarasota and that was failing also until PA stepped in at the 11th hour. Just what are John's credentials that give us confidence that he will make better decisions than PA? I believe the handwriting is on the wall about who he will trust in his decision-making and they are less capable than who PA listened to. I hope I'm wrong and he hires a highly qualified President, gives him/her a clear vision with goals and a roadmap and then gets out of the way. I don't believe John has ever done anything to give me that impresion.

[gmelson26]

23 hours ago, Going Underground said:

But Brady did the negotiating with the agent of all the Cuban players 

You would have thought Brady might tip the scales in our favor on VVM or Gaston. He could make a nice pitch, "Look if you sign with us, I will make sure you get paid in the big leagues even if you aren't that good, once this initial contract ends.  Just look at what I did for Chris Davis, Darren O'Day, and Chris Tillman."

[ThomasTomasz]

1 hour ago, AnythingO's said:

Look at the history. Graham was hired in 2007 I believe, Brady has been around forever, as has Stockstill. PA hired Andy, Buck, and Dan. John A. has had some executive responsibilities for 15-20 years, so he presumably had some input with PA. PA listened to Andy, Buck, Dan, and presumably John and made his own choices. Graham, Brady, and Stockstill all got executive promotions in the 2012-2013 time frame. Andy and Buck are gone and then Dan after he was allowed to make the trades and talk about International commitment. Then the contingent going to Miami includes Graham, Stockstill, Brady, and John. IMO opinion these are John's guys and he will use them just as PA used Andy, Buck, and Dan. Wasn't John in charge of new Spring training facility negotiations with Ft. Lauderdale? That failed and then we focused on Sarasota and that was failing also until PA stepped in at the 11th hour. Just what are John's credentials that give us confidence that he will make better decisions than PA? I believe the handwriting is on the wall about who he will trust in his decision-making and they are less capable than who PA listened to. I hope I'm wrong and he hires a highly qualified President, gives him/her a clear vision with goals and a roadmap and then gets out of the way. I don't believe John has ever done anything to give me that impresion.

There's been a stench of rot in the Warehouse for some time.  I mean, when was the last time we truly developed a TORP?  Erik Bedard and Mike Mussina are the last ones I remember.  We've had so many failed names it's ridiculous.  I think you may have pinpointed at least two of the problem folks here.  

[NCRaven]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

How likely do you think it is?

I think it's possible, but couldn't assign odds.  Before they were declared eligible, analysts at Fangraphs and others pegged VVM's value at around $3-3.5 mil, IIRC.  We know that Gaston was offered around $2 by the Marlins before they pulled it back due to the PED pop.  So it looks like both the Marlins and Rays went over the original expectations.  Possibly because of the Oriole's bids for those players.  We certainly forced the Marlins to trade off players for more cap space.  So, the bidding may have hit a point were Graham just said that he didn't think they were worth more under the current system.

I'm not saying that's what happened, just that there is some reasonable possibility.  I'm also not saying that I'm happy with the outcome.  Even if none of them made it too the majors, that doesn't mean that an investment of $6-7 mil in these players would have been wrong.  Most prospects don't hit big.  And, sometimes, they come out of nowhere - especially when you're talking about 16 year olds from Dominica and Cuba.  I'd be willing to bet (but not alot!) that at least one of these kids that signed for less that $100k will turn out to be far superior to VVM.  That's the nature of this market.

[wildbillhiccup]

24 minutes ago, gmelson26 said:

You would have thought Brady might tip the scales in our favor on VVM or Gaston. He could make a nice pitch, "Look if you sign with us, I will make sure you get paid in the big leagues even if you aren't that good, once this initial contract ends.  Just look at what I did for Chris Davis, Darren O'Day, and Chris Tillman."

Darren O'Day doesn't belong in a list with Davis and Tillman. He's been good, just derailed by injuries. It was still silly to give him a big contract when good but not great middle relievers are so prevalent so I get your point though. 

[drjohnnyfeva]

4 hours ago, NCRaven said:

Not necessarily true.  Maybe Graham and Maduro are the ones telling ownership that the Mesas and Gaston aren't worth what the other teams offered?

I don't deny that this could be the case, but, the announcement in July was a marketing ploy, as much as anything too, to quiet critics.  Wasn't it?  If that's the case, and that's how I see it, wasn't GETTING these international guys a better marketing strategy to keep critics engaged and positive in the idea that the owners were moving in the direction they committed to?  By futz-ing, and being wishy-washy, and saying they weren't worth it - or whatever other explanation they might provide - didn't they lose the marketing campaign with critics and make things even more difficult for themselves in overcoming the idea that, "We are going to do things right going forward."???

I understand they didn't "lose" the money, but they lost it for the purpose of signing international guys.  Clearly they blew it.  There's no other explanation.  If it turned into a bidding war they should have committed to win it... with at least one of these guys.

For me, these owners are inept.  Period.  This reflects more of the same internal conflict to me.  The salary dump of O'Day - other than just dumping O'Day and having to throw Gausman in to get ANYTHING out of it has made the trade a loss to us.  You can't commit to being in something you have no presence in, acting like it is now your thing, and expect it to turn out well.  They thought they were going to conquer it and it conquered them.  This is the story of our ownershit group.

Laughingstocks.

[drjohnnyfeva]

17 minutes ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

I don't deny that this could be the case, but, the announcement in July was a marketing ploy, as much as anything too, to quiet critics.  Wasn't it?  If that's the case, and that's how I see it, wasn't GETTING these international guys a better marketing strategy to keep critics engaged and positive in the idea that the owners were moving in the direction they committed to?  By futz-ing, and being wishy-washy, and saying they weren't worth it - or whatever other explanation they might provide - didn't they lose the marketing campaign with critics and make things even more difficult for themselves in sustaining their idea that, "We are going to do things right going forward."???

I understand they didn't "lose" the money, but they lost it for the purpose of signing international guys.  Clearly they blew it.  There's no other explanation.  If it turned into a bidding war they should have committed to win it... with at least one of these guys.

For me, these owners are inept.  Period.  This reflects more of the same internal conflict to me.  The salary dump of O'Day - other than just dumping O'Day and having to throw Gausman in to get ANYTHING out of it has made the trade a loss to us.  You can't commit to being in something you have no presence in, acting like it is now your thing, and expect it to turn out well.  They thought they were going to conquer it and it conquered them.  This is the story of our ownershit group.

Laughingstocks.

 

The bold is the edit... edit wasn't available...

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

 

The bold is the edit... edit wasn't available...

Plus perk.

[bobmc]

From Kevin:

 

[ThomasTomasz]

2 hours ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

I don't deny that this could be the case, but, the announcement in July was a marketing ploy, as much as anything too, to quiet critics.  Wasn't it?  If that's the case, and that's how I see it, wasn't GETTING these international guys a better marketing strategy to keep critics engaged and positive in the idea that the owners were moving in the direction they committed to?  By futz-ing, and being wishy-washy, and saying they weren't worth it - or whatever other explanation they might provide - didn't they lose the marketing campaign with critics and make things even more difficult for themselves in overcoming the idea that, "We are going to do things right going forward."???

I understand they didn't "lose" the money, but they lost it for the purpose of signing international guys.  Clearly they blew it.  There's no other explanation.  If it turned into a bidding war they should have committed to win it... with at least one of these guys.

For me, these owners are inept.  Period.  This reflects more of the same internal conflict to me.  The salary dump of O'Day - other than just dumping O'Day and having to throw Gausman in to get ANYTHING out of it has made the trade a loss to us.  You can't commit to being in something you have no presence in, acting like it is now your thing, and expect it to turn out well.  They thought they were going to conquer it and it conquered them.  This is the story of our ownershit group.

Laughingstocks.

Considering the old Executive VP said it, we can't take it at face value anymore.  We have to wait it out and see who is hired as EVP of Baseball Operations, who they hire as GM, who they both hire as manager and the direction they take the development system.  Can they truly change just about everything?  Can they add more staff to the scouting department?  Two more were added before Duquette left-  Doug Witt and Rich Amaral- so what is going to happen with them?  

In my mind, the list of untouchable guys in the organization is very small.  John Wasdin should stay on as minor league pitching coordinator- he came from a very heavy analytics organization in Oakland, and has been key to the pitchers that we've drafted the past two years that have gotten good reviews from those in the know.  Alan Mills has done a very good job with some of these relievers, especially the ones transitioning from starters to relievers, and with Mychal Givens, he deserves to stay.  Ryan Minor and his staff at Frederick should stay, and Leyland's son should get a chance on the major league staff next year. 

Everyone else, to me, can be cleared out.   There is a rot in the Warehouse, and it's pretty expansive.  There is a reason we can't develop TORP pitchers, and it's not for a lack of not trying, or not drafting high enough.  Since Mike Mussina, the only pitcher we have successfully developed as a legitimate headline for a rotation was Erik Bedard.  That is a huge problem, and as far as I am concerned, people who have been around since Bedard was traded, in any capacity, should be gone.  

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

Maybe the Orioles should focus their efforts on Dominicans now that they have struck out with Cuban prospects.