A few nuggets....

[BaltimoreTerp]

I can't believe that some of you truly believe that embarrassing players in the press is a reasonable action to take. I hope your managers publically embarrass you so you can tell me how much it "motivated" you. That is the absolutely quickest way for DT to lose the respect of the players.

Ray Miller did what you're suggesting. Remember how well that worked?

Adults don't respect people who resort to embarrassment as a motivational tool. I can't believe I even have to type that sentence to be honest.

I did say if they keep doing it.

I mean, you can only give your kid a time-out so many times before you have to move on to something else to get your point across.

[Flip217]

Wow a 12-page Bigbird "a few things" thread (complete with a Belkast cameo), and nothing more than a lot of Trembley report carding and some forgettable Bill Hall chatter?

Major bummer! I want my money back!

Well, the participants are enjoying themselves. It's just the critics that want a refund.

[Lucky Jim]

No offense, but this is an idiotic post. Simply ridiculous. I can't believe you honestly think public embarrassment is a reasonable tool for motivation of adults. I hope you're not a manager.

SG - is that you?

I actually don't disagree all that much with bluedog on this point. If an entire team knows that certain players are dogging it, lazy, unaccountable, whathaveyou, then some acknowledgment in the press is hardly going to destroy the union, is it?

I mean, I don't think "public embarrassment" is the answer. But talking frankly about poor performance, mental lapses, and other kinds of sub-standard play shouldn't be verbotten. If Ramon Hernandez doesn't feel embarrassed enough to somehow avoid half-assed blocking and running into outs, then maybe somehow should supply him a helpful hint.

Some of these guys aren't acting like adults: they're lazy, inconsistent, irresponsible.

[Lucky Jim]

These aren't kids. It is funny that all the guys suggesting public embarrassment don't respond to what they'd do if they're manager publicly embarrassed them.

Do you remember when Miller told the press "go talk to them. I didn't make those terrible plays/pitches"? Remember how the team went completely in the tank. Care to explain how this is different?

I don't know a manager in the majors who throws ANYONE on their team under the bus in the press. Not one. Even Ozzy doesn't do that though he did throw his hitting coach and GM under the bus (and almost got fired for it).

This just isn't what a good manager in any profession does. I'm sorry, but I'm shocked so many of you disagree with this point.

There's a fundamental problem with this theory, VT: it ties a manager's permissible actions to the player's sensitivity to embarrassment. Is a benching too much? What if a player's punishment in a Kangaroo Court gets to the press?

The fact of the matter is, this isn't some binary opposition where a manager's actions either embarrass or don't embarrass their players. DT treats his players with respect, Ray Miller didn't.

Ray Miller's comments were symptomatic of a larger problem in his relationship to his players. DT doesn't suffer from this. His players aren't going to turn on him if he selectively makes comments about something.

Heck, he sure singled Garrett Olson out last night. Why can he do that and not single out other players? And why is he so hard on Olson?

[JTrea81]

O.K., Just read this entire thread.

First of all, JTrea, Trembley didn't say that he didn't want Bergesen up, I believe he was referring to Norfolk and said "Nobody has set the world on fire."

Trembley said he prefers Chris Tillman and Brad Bergesen remain at Bowie and Jake Arrieta at Frederick so they can get "as much experience as they can under their belts" and put up numbers to give them "a sense of confidence."

I think Bergesen has plenty of confidence seeing he's now 12-4 on the season combined.

[Lucky Jim]

I try really hard not to type things like that, but I'm not going to stomach posts acting like these guys deserve to be humiliated JUST because they make a large salary. That is the most inane argument and it happens on this board about three times a year.

It is pretty simple to me. If a person thinks that it is acceptable for DT to publicly embarrass his players, that person should also think it is acceptable to be publicly embarrassed by their boss, partner, spouse, family, etc.... I don't think it is acceptable. EVER.

Doing stuff like that is appealing to the lowest common denominator. It is getting down in the slop with the pigs to LOOK like you're doing something. I would lose a TON of respect for DT or anyone who did this to people they manage.

I guess I don't know the range of actions we're talking about here. What public humiliation is so great that Trembley would lose the team?

If we haven't thrown out specific actions, then we're treating the hypothetical as if it has definite material results. Not sure this is the short-road to accuracy.

[Scrat1]

Bigbird's threads are straight narcotics.

[BaltimoreTerp]

These aren't kids. It is funny that all the guys suggesting public embarrassment don't respond to what they'd do if they're manager publicly embarrassed them.

Do you remember when Miller told the press "go talk to them. I didn't make those terrible plays/pitches"? Remember how the team went completely in the tank. Care to explain how this is different?

I don't know a manager in the majors who throws ANYONE on their team under the bus in the press. Not one. Even Ozzy doesn't do that though he did throw his hitting coach and GM under the bus (and almost got fired for it).

This just isn't what a good manager in any profession does. I'm sorry, but I'm shocked so many of you disagree with this point.

You're missing MY point, though.

It isn't that you have to embarrass your players to get your point across, but that if what you are doing is not working (and repeated mistakes by some players seems to suggest this) then something YOU are doing needs to change.

[MCL1021]

Sorry bigbird. I'm not buying that the management is upset with Trembley. Trembley has used the bullpen as well as anyone given his lack of starting pitching.

Back up your suggestion that these things are not being addressed. Because unlike you, I was in the lockerroom last night and talked with both Trembley and Shelby and both have been trying to work on things.

I'm not going to get into specifics, but Trembley knows there are still some knuckleheads on this team when it comes to playing the game right and unfortunately, it's the hand he's dealt.

Do you really think anyone can get players like Mora and Hernandez to be smart players?

Trembley is part of the solution and although he's not perfect, there's absolutely no reason to think he's in trouble.

Please make sure to differentiate between what you are hearing and your opinion, because this comment sounds a lot more like opinion than organizational thoughts.

Maybe DT doesn't have the full-backing of everyone in that clubhouse.....

I for one will be a little heated if DT is let go, I think he's just the manager we need for this ballclub, but it's not up to me.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I think several people have mentioned that he should rant and rave to the press and "show a little fire". They want to be able to SEE the punishment and hear the ire he shows to the player. That isn't about right and wrong IMO. It is about a mob mentality and a revenge factor. Poster X is upset that Player Y played poorly so he wants to see him embarrassed.

Or they want to know the player is actually being punished.

[RShack]

If you have veteran players who don't do things right and won't fix it, you don't go out of your way to embarrass them or bench them or send them to the brig. You play them as long as they can help the team, and you arrange things so they aren't on the team next year. It helps nothing to have guys around being PO'd and resentful and sulking. If you don't want them around, you arrange for them to not be around. In the meantime, you make the most of it. That's what Bobby Cox would do. He'd chew 'em out in private and be nice in public. And next year, ooops, they wouldn't be there.

This whole punishment idea is goofy. They're millionaires. You can't really hurt them, all you can do is make enemies in your own clubhouse. IMO, some folks here are way to focused on getting into dumb no-win power struggles and inventing battles, and are not focused enough on winning the war. I think most of the folks who say stuff like that have never actually been a boss, so they don't appreciate the situation DT is in.

[Eight]

I completely disagree with this position. I can't understand why anyone would think that basic human rights are dependent on how much someone makes and/or how visible they are. A manager should treat his employees with respect and expect as much in return regardless of whether it is at Burger King, the President of the United States, or the manager of a baseball team. You really believe that you should be willing to be treated poorly by the man who is your boss JUST because you make a lot of money or you do it in the public eye?

Basic human rights? Are folks saying that Trembley should subject Ramon Hernandez to physical torture when he makes a Little League caliber play on the basepaths?

[Lucky Jim]

He said that he didn't agree with Olson's pitch selection. He said that he was upset by the repetitiveness of the baserunning incidents. That isn't publically embarrassing someone. These are constructive comments that focus on an action rather than personal characteristics. It is fundamentally different.

And I stand by the fact that Miller had a problem because he did these sorts of things over and over. If DT did this sort of stuff, he would also lose their respect.

There is nothing wrong with benching someone. There is nothing wrong with pulling them from a game. There is nothing wrong with a kangeroo court. If the results leak to the press, it is ok so long as the manager didn't intentionally do it. None of these things are the public embarrassment of a player IMO.

Ramon would have already been benched if they weren't clearly trying to move him.

"That game last night, it wasn't the baserunning," Trembley said. "Did anybody say anything about the pitch selection that Olson made? Goodness sakes. How about some of the pitches that he was throwing to the guys hitting eight and nine? You're going to beat Detroit, you better not give up home runs."

I guess I didn't love the way he used Olson as a means of deflecting criticism. I don't think he intended it this way, but the construction of that first sentence makes it seem like "it wasn't the baserunning, it was Olson." Unintended, but also a little bit careless in its construction. Further, Olson's a rookie. Is he calling his own game? I've heard you say that Ramon's sequences are abysmal. Why dump this on Garrett?

That said, I just don't see how you can make the argument that embarrassment of players results in a lost clubhouse, and then use your subjective definition of what's embarrassing. We know that Mora was angry at Perlozzo for something insignificant two years ago (much less than a cause-based benching).

If embarrassment causes disintegration, then it wouldn't seem to matter how that embarrassment comes about.

I guess the second question would be: how is calling someone's mistakes out in the press an embarrassment?

Football coaches do it all the time ("Such and such needs to make better decisions in the pocket"). Heck, college basketball coaches do it all the time ("Greivas really needs to make better decisions with the basketball").

If you're player makes a mistake, and has done it repeatedly, it's not embarrassing to have a manager say that it's a problem that needs to be fixed in any devastating way, is it?

Heck, I've seen college basketball players who are more accountable than Ramon Hernandez.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I don't disagree that something else needs to be done. Nowhere did I say that I didn't think something should be done. What do you suggest OTHER than embarrassing the players in the press?

You are the one saying he SHOULDN'T do some things. So, what do YOU think he should do?

[Lucky Jim]

Don't you see how selfish and wrong this is? This isn't about US. It isn't. It is about DT and that player and that team. We don't have the right to know that player X got scolded or fined for doing something incorrectly. This is an extremely egocentric point of view. It is also quite normal in this day and age.

I don't want my mistakes broadcast to those who aren't directly involved so I won't do it to someone else.

Ummm. We are the client of the Baltimore Orioles. If I foul up and my client knows about it, you can be darn sure that my firm is going to let the client know that I've been held accountable.

I don't think this is right, VT.