Montanez on the bench...again

[J.D.]

It seems to me that a lot of the frustration expressed in this thread and in similar ones stems from the fact that the O's are again under .500 in late August, in last place, and not seemingly interested enough in evaluating talent that could help in the future.

I don't necessarily think that Montanez is going to be a late bloomer like Guthrie or that he'll turn into an All-Star. He may only be a fourth outfielder or he may not even be good enough to stay in the majors. But to treat him as a fourth outfielder now because you think that will be his role next year seems counterproductive to me. He's unproven up here so he should be getting as many at bats as possible between now and the end of the year to see where he may fit next year. Same story for Reimold. There's just too much Millar/Mora/Payton for my liking when not one of them will contribute to the next winning O's team (whenever that may be).

Well, you can't just bench Millar and Mora and Payton because Millar and Mora have earned their right to play and Payton's a defensive necessity, and you can't get rid of them. So now what?

[bluedog]

August 5: Brought in as a replacement for Scott. 0 at bats.

August 6: Starts in LF. 4 at bats. 2 hits.

August 8: Pinch hit for Scott. 1 at bat.

August 9: Pinch runner for Scott. 1 at bat.

August 10: Started in LF. 4 at bats. 3 hits.

Let's not pretend that Tremblay is maximizing his value. He has 10 at bats in 5 games. If he was starting between LF/DH everyday, he'd have twice that. The idea is to get a fair assessment, which means you need more than just some random sample sizes inflated and deflated by games where he's getting 1 at bat as a pinch hitter.

We have 45 games left. In that time Montanez could get roughly 180-200 at bats, give or take. Not ideal, but at least it's something solid to build an evaluation on. And that is without doing anything crazy like playing him in CF or SS.

Does anyone care if Millar or Mora lose 80-100 at bats? Anyone?

Other than Millar and Mora (and presumably Trembley) I think the answer is a resounding "NO".

What shocks me is the fact that we have a guy who was absolutely crushing AA pitching in one of the most productive minor league seasons in O's history and we still have so many people who aren't even inclined to give him a fair shot at proving he can translate his game to the majors.

Who are these people and what have they done with all of the O's fans?

[Mackus]

Well, you can't just bench Millar and Mora and Payton because Millar and Mora have earned their right to play and Payton's a defensive necessity, and you can't get rid of them. So now what?

You bench all of them, but only a little.

Sit Mora, Scott, Huff, and Millar once a week each, giving Montanez the starts (if he proves to the coaching staff he can play CF at a near league average level, you can mix Payton into this as well, but for now lets leave him at LF). None of those guys will have a problem with playing "only" 4 out of every 5 games.

Nobody needs to get benched for Montanez to get plenty of ABs. And you can't just play him as a regular 4th OF, because that won't leave enough at bats for him over the remainder of the season to get a good gauge on the situation.

[J.D.]

Other than Millar and Mora (and presumably Trembley) I think the answer is a resounding "NO".

What shocks me is the fact that we have a guy who was absolutely crushing AA pitching in one of the most productive minor league seasons in O's history and we still have so many people who aren't even inclined to give him a fair shot at proving he can translate his game to the majors.

Who are these people and what have they done with all of the O's fans?

Oh, I'm not an O's fan because I don't want to see guys that have played well for the Orioles this year and are hitting very very well lately benched for a kid who couldn't hack it at AAA in the past? Good to know.

I don't care if he had such a productive season at Bowie. Or, more accurately, if he was 22 doing that, or 23, I'd care. He's 26. He's failed every time he's gotten an advancement.

I'll be really upset if Reimold gets called up and doesn't get at bats. Same with Wieters. I'm not really upset about Montanez. You're not swaying me by throwing out his AA numbers. He should be doing that in NORFOLK at his age.

[J.D.]

You bench all of them, but only a little.

Sit Mora, Scott, Huff, and Millar once a week each, giving Montanez the starts (if he proves to the coaching staff he can play CF at a near league average level, you can mix Payton into this as well, but for now lets leave him at LF). None of those guys will have a problem with playing "only" 4 out of every 5 games.

Nobody needs to get benched for Montanez to get plenty of ABs. And you can't just play him as a regular 4th OF, because that won't leave enough at bats for him over the remainder of the season to get a good gauge on the situation.

I'm just fine with this, and I have a feeling that once Montanez feels comfortable playing in the field more, that's exactly what will be done with him.

Trembley said that he'll get his at bats. He's not calling him up to sit. I get sick of seeing the daily overreaction when he's not in the line-up.

[bluedog]

Well, you can't just bench Millar and Mora and Payton because Millar and Mora have earned their right to play and Payton's a defensive necessity, and you can't get rid of them. So now what?

Last time I looked, Millar and Mora didn't control playing time - Trembley does.

The solution is simple. Give Scott, Huff, Mora, Millar and Payton all one day off a week and play Lou in CF when Payton is off (just to see if he can handle it) and LF when the other four are off. That gets Lou five starts a week and costs each of the O's vets just one game off a week.

You can easily justify this by saying that giving the vets time off will help them stay fresh and reduce the risk of injury going into next season.

It's a win all around.

[ACE]

Well, you can't just bench Millar and Mora and Payton because Millar and Mora have earned their right to play and Payton's a defensive necessity, and you can't get rid of them. So now what?

This is a good point. We quickly lump Mora and to a lesser extent Millar in with Payton.

Mora has been banged up all year, finally healthy and smoking the ball. Plus based on the +/- isn't costing us defensively.

Yes, Payton has been a mouthy 4th outfielder the entire year, but our options are limited. If Jones was healthy and we were consistently giving ABs to Payton over Montanez, I could see this being more or an issue.

[bluedog]

Oh, I'm not an O's fan because I don't want to see guys that have played well for the Orioles this year and are hitting very very well lately benched for a kid who couldn't hack it at AAA in the past? Good to know.

I don't care if he had such a productive season at Bowie. Or, more accurately, if he was 22 doing that, or 23, I'd care. He's 26. He's failed every time he's gotten an advancement.

I'll be really upset if Reimold gets called up and doesn't get at bats. Same with Wieters. I'm not really upset about Montanez. You're not swaying me by throwing out his AA numbers. He should be doing that in NORFOLK at his age.

I don't get the desire to reward guys with playing time who aren't a part of this team's future at the expense of evaluating talent that could help us win next year and beyond. What exactly does that do for us next year?

As an O's fan, I'd expect people to be interested in what's best for the organization, not what's best for individual players who won't be playing for us next year...

[bluedog]

This is a good point. We quickly lump Mora and to a lesser extent Millar in with Payton.

Mora has been banged up all year, finally healthy and smoking the ball. Plus based on the +/- isn't costing us defensively.

Yes, Payton has been a mouthy 4th outfielder the entire year, but our options are limited. If Jones was healthy and we were consistently giving ABs to Payton over Montanez, I could see this being more or an issue.

Mora is somewhat different because he's likely our third baseman next year. You don't want to bench him for that reason.

But giving the man a day off every week given his age and nagging injuries, that just makes perfect sense. The fact that it opens up a start for Montanez is just icing on the cake.

[J.D.]

I don't get the desire to reward guys with playing time who aren't a part of this team's future at the expense of evaluating talent that could help us win next year and beyond. What exactly does that do for us next year?

As an O's fan, I'd expect people to be interested in what's best for the organization, not what's best for individual players who won't be playing for us next year...

And I fail to see how starting a guy who's still trying to adjust to the bigs defensively and admitted that he's not ready to start as "not doing what's best for the organization."

Ultimately, what's best for the organization is winning as many games as possible, yes? Mora, Millar, and Huff aren't preventing us from winning. Quite the opposite. Those are the guys that get their playing time cut (along with Scott) if you start Montanez everyday.

When Lou is ready, I fully expect to see him worked into the starting rotation. That is what Trembley said when Montanez was called up, after all.

[Anonymous]

You are making just way too much fantastically good sense throughout this thread, bludog. Now stop that!

We are a rebuilding team. If a rebuilding team can't find time for a prospect with triple crown numbers at AA to attempt to prove himself at the major league level at the expense of an old, below average, lame duck veteran player who is definitely not in the teams long term plans, then someone needs to be fired because they have no clue what rebuilding is all about.

And if Montanez can't play CF then he can't effectively fill Payton's role as 4th outfielder on this team. The whole point of a 4th outfielder is that they can play all three outfield positions as needed. If you are correct and he can't play CF then he's not a good choice for 4th outfielder. This is particularly true if you want your 4th outfielder to be a superior defensive player and a base stealing threat, which is exactly the kind of player you want on the bench - which is where your 4th outfielder will usually be!

And the O's are almost certainly looking at Montanez to see whether he can be our full time LF next season. With Millar probably gone and Huff possibly going to 1b (if we don't sign Tex) that pushes Scott (as a below average defensive outfielder) to DH. This leaves a hole in LF. Why in the world wouldn't we want to see if Montanez can continue to rake to the tune of a .800+ OPS at the major league level now when there is nothing on the line except for evaluating players for next year?

Finally, how in the world can you say that Lou lacks the skills to be more than a 4th outfielder in the bigs? Even professional scouts that make a living doing this stuff routinely fail to correctly call whether players have the skills to succeed in the bigs. If the professional scouts and front office people can't say with certainty who's going to make it in pro ball, who in the world are you to make definitive statements about someone like Montanez and his ability to make it in the pros as a starter?

Give the man a chance before you bury him...

Other than Millar and Mora (and presumably Trembley) I think the answer is a resounding "NO".

What shocks me is the fact that we have a guy who was absolutely crushing AA pitching in one of the most productive minor league seasons in O's history and we still have so many people who aren't even inclined to give him a fair shot at proving he can translate his game to the majors.

Who are these people and what have they done with all of the O's fans?

Last time I looked, Millar and Mora didn't control playing time - Trembley does.

The solution is simple. Give Scott, Huff, Mora, Millar and Payton all one day off a week and play Lou in CF when Payton is off (just to see if he can handle it) and LF when the other four are off. That gets Lou five starts a week and costs each of the O's vets just one game off a week.

You can easily justify this by saying that giving the vets time off will help them stay fresh and reduce the risk of injury going into next season.

It's a win all around.

I don't get the desire to reward guys with playing time who aren't a part of this team's future at the expense of evaluating talent that could help us win next year and beyond. What exactly does that do for us next year?

As an O's fan, I'd expect people to be interested in what's best for the organization, not what's best for individual players who won't be playing for us next year...

Mora is somewhat different because he's likely our third baseman next year. You don't want to bench him for that reason.

But giving the man a day off every week given his age and nagging injuries, that just makes perfect sense. The fact that it opens up a start for Montanez is just icing on the cake.

[bluedog]

And I fail to see how starting a guy who's still trying to adjust to the bigs defensively and admitted that he's not ready to start as "not doing what's best for the organization."

Ultimately, what's best for the organization is winning as many games as possible, yes? Mora, Millar, and Huff aren't preventing us from winning. Quite the opposite. Those are the guys that get their playing time cut (along with Scott) if you start Montanez everyday.

When Lou is ready, I fully expect to see him worked into the starting rotation. That is what Trembley said when Montanez was called up, after all.

Then DH him until he's ready to play in the field. Pretty easy to find at bats there by sitting Mora, Huff and Millar once a week.

But there's also this theory that the only way to learn how to do something is to do it. I don't see how he can learn to play major league outfield by sitting on the bench.

And I completely disagree that winning games is always what's best for the organization. Clearly Billy Beane would agree with this since he was willing to push a competitive (but not playoff bound) team into an absolutely tremendous nosedive in order to improve the team for next year and beyond. For Beane, winning a few more games in a season where you aren't going to make the playoffs means next to nothing relative to building for the future.

[J.D.]

Then DH him until he's ready to play in the field. Pretty easy to find at bats there by sitting Mora, Huff and Millar once a week.

But there's also this theory that the only way to learn how to do something is to do it. I don't see how he can learn to play major league outfield by sitting on the bench.

I'm sure he'll get worked into that rotation, too.

Mora, Huff, and Millar are hitting incredibly well right now. There's no reason to sit them. When one of them stops hitting, then sure, give up some of their ABs.

[TommyD4207]

play Lou in CF when Payton is off (just to see if he can handle it)

This is one of my biggest pet peeves, especially in this situation. There's no experiment that needs to be done. Trembley has managed Montanez before. He knows what he is as a CF'er. The Orioles have had scouts in the system follow him and see him play CF. Very, very good bet that the Orioles know exactly what they'd be getting out of him as a CF'er, why on earth would they want to experiment with it? To prove to the fans one way or the other? Well, I don't want that. No way will I ever want the Orioles to put themselves in harm's way for the sole purpose of killing a fan's curiousity.

[bluedog]

I'm sure he'll get worked into that rotation, too.

Mora, Huff, and Millar are hitting incredibly well right now. There's no reason to sit them. When one of them stops hitting, then sure, give up some of their ABs.

I don't care if they are all putting up Hall of Fame numbers - the thing that's in the best interest of the organization is to find playing time for our future players, not guys who are soon to be ex-Orioles.

Wins at this point mean virtually nothing to this club. We're still a last place, sub .500 ballclub. Do we really want to mortgage the future (for the 11th year in a row) in an attempt to pad individual stats or to desperately chase after an 83 - 81 season when it won't mean a post season berth?

The only reason to keep playing those guys that makes sense from an organizational standpoint is to showcase them for possible trades. If they've cleared waivers and we're attempting to move them, then I can see the value of playing them. If we can move any of them to clear roster space or payroll or to bring back a valuable player, then Lou can sit for a few more weeks.

But come September 1st, if Lou isn't starting 5 - 6 times a week there is something fudamentally wrong with this organization.